Why do you even need a DUNS number? If you're an individual person, just get an individual account and sell it that way.
Honestly, this seems a bit like a publicity stunt to me. Everyone loves hating on Apple these days, and if you can tie it to "look at my new opensource project", then BAM, it hits HN front page.
I opened a company specifically for this (ipad/iphone development) it was my plan to leave my current company and build something less stressful. I reached a point where I'm no longer interested in building apps for the app store, apple asks too much and give us too little.
I posted on HN because most readers are also programmers and they are exactly whom will fork the project, etc. That said, yep, it can be considered a 'publicity stunt', but you make it sound as something bad. I really just want that those interested get in touch.
Because you've basically admitted that your post is disingenuous. The DUNS requirement is easily sidestepped in the short term and a complete non-issue in the long term.
I'm confused - if you opened a company, then there is obviously going to be a lot more paperwork/hoops to jump through than if you did this as an individual. Maybe I'm missing something here - why didn't you just publish the App as an individual?
My idea was to release an app every 3-5 months and make at least 60k/year. I cannot sell that much in Brazil as a individual (limit here is 36k BRL).
Actually, it took me 8 days to open the company. At the first day I had the CNPJ (EIN in the US), so, in fact, it took me less than 24 hours to be able to accept payments.
I don't see the app store as a viable way of making a living anymore (for single developers). I'll try to build something that doesn't depend of other company's mood.
AFAIK 36k/year is the cut-off for lower taxes, not a hard limit (for independent workers/RPA). You do get much lower taxes by doing business as a company though.
So he thought he had it all figured out, and was so sure we would beat 36K/year that he opened a company just to ensure lower taxes when the inevitable happens...
It's funny, but you also have to admire the optimism. If it only was accompanied with more persistence.
How would you like to pay ~40% taxes instead of 5-12%? 36k is already a meager salary before taxes. It's a no-brainer to open a company, it pays for itself in the first month.
You have to have income before you pay any taxes. And you started the whole company with the idea that money will start flowing as soon as you write iOS apps...
I remember reading somewhere about paying $230 to get it done within a couple of days. If that was your plan(60K/year, not to mention the amount of money and time you would need to invest to start a serious company) then whats the problem of paying that relatively little amount of money just to get it out of the way?
If you're planning to build a company, I don't think this will be your biggest problem. Unless, if you're doing this part time, then its even easier, just get an individual account.
My understanding is that DUNS was not always a requirement for companies publishing on the iOS App Store. It was added about a year and a half ago (?) and given the timing and what DUNS represents it seems reasonable to assume that it was added as a reaction to app spammers and scammers that would run fly by night operations, take people's money and run.
DUNS may not have been the best solution and like other areas of the submission/approval process it seems there are some obvious quality of life improvements Apple should implement but in the big picture what is the alternative to DUNS?
(1) Go back to scammer friendly system. Yeah I don't see that happening.
(2) Apple holds the money for longer. I don't see people lining up for this option.
(3) Everyone has to buy insurance. Spoilers: insurer asks for DUNS number.
(4) A better partner than D&B. Is there one? The US government appears to be looking for alternatives as well[1] but it doesn't look like there is a good replacement.
GSA has been conducting an analysis of alternatives for the use of Dun & Bradstreet's DUNS entity unique identifier and is expected to complete its analysis by March 30, 2013.
(5) Apple provides the relatively simple service of looking up incorporation documents.
I can't complain about the speed in getting a DUNS number, since it was quiet fast. Being in Canada, I was surprised how fast they were able to validate my newly created corporation. But I am not sure why we're to believe that D&B have special abilities. Incorporation documents are publicly available.
Apple controls their own requirements. They don't have to require a DUNS number, and didn't until recently. If DUNS sucks, it makes perfect sense to blame Apple for requiring them.
> First off, you actually have a limit on how much an individual developer can make? That sounds crazy.
Yes crazy, but that's how governments work.
Here in Poland you there is a problem with this also. Most of the time you have to register a company to be able to do anything that is not "working for someone else".
E.g. when you put AdSense on your webpage and make some money you should do it under a company, not as an individual. Similarly with appstores.
I don't think so. When people form LLC's it's for liability reasons, not because the government complains if they make too much money under their own name.
LLCs do not shield you from liability for your own actions, such as if you are the developer who made an error in code that damaged a customer. E&O insurance is what is really needed and is held by any professional company or individual selling software. LLC organization is not a way to avoid purchasing E&O insurance, contrary to the popular opinion on the internet. Those who don't believe me should seek the counsel of a competent attorney. If your attorney says that an LLC shields you from liability from your own coding errors, the attorney is not competent and you should seek another.
I thought an LLC basically prevented someone from seizing your personal assets if they sue your company. They can only get the company's assets in a lawsuit.
It is a bit tricky on the liability shield for a corporation. If the entity (LLC/corporation/etc.) makes a bad investment, the creditors cannot come after your personal assets (assuming you haven't put up a personal guarantee). If one of your employees has an expensive accident while driving for you, exceeding your insurance, they can only take the assets of your entity. BUT if you are driving that company vehicle and hit the school bus, they can sue you personally for your personal mistakes, even though you were on company business.
You can always convert from individual account to company account. Just register as individual first and convert later, if you have to wait for DUNS number. I know getting a DUNS number sucks but there is way around it.
>My idea was to release an app every 3-5 months and make at least 60k/year. I cannot sell that much in Brazil as a individual (limit here is 36k BRL). I don't see the app store as a viable way of making a living anymore (for single developers). I'll try to build something that doesn't depend of other company's mood.
It was never a "viable way of making a living" in the sense you describe. Who told you you can "release an app every 3-5 months and make 60k/year at least"?
For one, a proper apps takes a lot more time.
Second, no app is guaranteed to make anything at all.
Especially if it's coming from someone that hasn't made released any other iPhone app, doesn't know the market and doesn't know Objective-C! The App Store is like any other market: it takes effort, determination, hard work and/or luck.
And you devised all this plan (and even paid to start a company) without even testing the waters with a single app? Perhaps seeing something in the range of 2K a year for your first app (as many developers do, and most even less) would have spared you all this trouble.
Seems to me like you had this idea that the App Store was like a money printing service, where you just churn out some apps and roll in the dough, and in the first sign of trouble (and BS trouble at that, like the DUNS requirement) you demand the free money you were promised...
>I opened a company specifically for this (ipad/iphone development) it was my plan to leave my current company and build something less stressful.
This seems more like wishful thinking (and underestimating the effort and polish needed) than a serious business decision.
>I reached a point where I'm no longer interested in building apps for the app store, apple asks too much and give us too little.
It asks for: a Mac to work (lots of people have one already) on, a $99/year iOS developer account and 30% of your sales.
With that you get: an quite capable IDE for free, a top-notch SDK, tons of documentation, access to a market of 100+ million devices and one-click credit card accounts that is KNOWN to sell billions of apps.
Seems like a bargain. Heck, companies used to sell a developer license for their SDK at the price of a high-end Mac itself -- and without providing access to any market or a free IDE. A lot still do.
What exactly have you provided to feel so entitled? A half-finished app, built while "learning Objective-C"?
There are many benefits to being an LLC, and many reasons why one would want to publish as a company instead of as an individual.
I have also read before (can't find it now, though) that there are people who give more credibility to applications when they are published by a company rather than an individual.
In the US a sole proprietorship is a business. A sole proprietorship is the most common form of business in the United States. Sole Proprietorships do not require LLC or C corporation filings. Often but not always they require a business license. If one does not have business partners and is running a software company, the sole proprietorship is the most sensible form. Note that LLCs do not protect the actual developer from liability from his errors, they only protect the partners from liability from errors they themselves did not personally create. To protect oneself from ones own errors, businesses should acquire E&O insurance. Software development businesses that do not have E&O insurance are putting themselves at risk.
Unfortunately I agree. It sounds like a frustrating process, but people LOVE to hate Apple these days. And Apple is letting it happen. When you stop innovating and creating things people love, you allow yourself to take jabs. Maintaining and monetizing the hell out of what you already have seems like a good idea on paper, but it doesn't seem to be working out so well for Apple at this point.
Like Apple makes no money, nobody buys its products, etc.?
Can we stop this "innovation" bullshit? Do you even know what you want (gimmics don't count). What kind of innovation do you expect from Samsung in its next phone? From Google in next Nexus? Coffee maker and kitchen sink? Or do you want them radically changing UI, just because someone got bored?
How often do you want them to innovate, once a month or once in three monts would be enough?
To be honest, it seems these days like Apple is trying their best to reduce the number of [small] developers that publish to the App Store.
I have been selling on the app store for close to 3 years, and in the last 6 months, pretty much every thing that somewhat levels the playing field has been taken away by Apple.
The new releases list used to be every apps's chance to be visible for at least 24 - 48 hrs, and if enough people bought your app, it made its way to the top in category list, which in turn gave it visibility as long as people kept buying your app.
Apple has removed the new releases list, and have made it very difficult for people to find the top in category lists. The only prominent lists now, are the hand picked apps in the featured category.
I find it hard to believe that all this is not intentional.
My advise to anyone seeking to develop mobile apps right now? Think it through before you jump in.
Fuck this mentality. What do we, as a collective community, say to the companies that can't mutate their business models because a player in the field has changed things up (for better or worse)? We tell them to change or die.
Why is this any different? So what you can't depend on a "New Release" list anymore - do something else to get attention. That's basically a fundamental part of our creed, as hackers and as creators.
iOS is fundamentally a business, it's within their rights to do as they please. It makes sense to make the most profit and that probably means moving from small iDev businesses to large ones (ie SEGA etc) that are happy to spend a lot of money pushing their apps.
I agree with you though and I think the hackers will move elsewhere. Im excited to see if people move across to android etc for exactly this reason.
iOS will taper off eventually but Apple will milk every cent before that happens.
Why would a developer move to Android? Even today it's harder to get sales on Android. I would expect devs to move to the web or possibly make a bet on one of the other platforms.
I'm saying that eventually Android and other platforms will grow to match or exceed the spends of iOS customers.
If it were me doing it now, I would develop for iOS because thats where the money is at the moment. Having said that, you need to deal with the hoops that this developer is talking about. To my mind that is just part of doing business though.
>I'm saying that eventually Android and other platforms will grow to match or exceed the spends of iOS customers.
Android playing with low margins has so far just resulted in it wining a huge share of the demographic that doesn't buy many apps and don't much care for smartphones anyway.
The App Store can probably be more profitable than Android apps even with 1/10 the users -- as long as those are the right users.
Not sure. It's been thirty years since the "desktop PC" market and Apple still commands the majority of the profits from personal computers sold.
(Lots of techies and tinkerers also choose Android for it being more "open", but those are an insignificant minority that doesn't mean anything money wise).
I've said this many times here before but I'll say it again - the way to make money on the app store is to build apps on contract for other people.
If building and selling your own products is your goal then there are other platforms and distribution channels that are much less hostile to the small indie dev.
Actually all platforms that have enough volume to support products with customer live time values above $.99.
Otherwise you can't put meaningful money into customer acquisition.
It's very product specific. For example, I'm interested in music-making software so I'm looking at VST plugins. A web-based SAAS app might make more sense for other people, etc.
Am I missing something or is everything you are saying wrong ?
Apple hasn't removed the New Release section, it was two taps for me to find the Top Free/Paid apps in each category and the process for registration for single developers hasn't changed.
I also don't agree that getting into mobile apps is a bad thing right now. If you can make something great you have every opportunity to do well.
"The source code will become public as soon as all drawing tools (those white boxes on the tool bar) are functional. This should take some days (around 20-40 LOC per tool) I’m also trying to clean some some mess (lots on unused assets, etc)"
I may have read this the wrong way, but it sounds like your app is incomplete and you've got at least another 20-30 days development to get things feature complete and thoroughly tested. Would Apple even accept the app to the App Store in it's current state?
If it was me I'd have plugged away at the red tape during those 20-30 days of development before chucking the towel in.
I stopped the development when I was told to wait (nov 26th).
Those are just scripts that render objects, the app is fully developed. In fact, they are PDFs drawn in adobe illustrator and just added to a JSON file. The lines of code are just stub classes.
Evidently, people tend to congregate around posts that bash Apple or decry some flaw with the system around which many people spend their time and money.
It doesn't need to be substantive or revelatory to be on front page; it just needs to be sensational and attractive. It should be no surprise considering the shit that passes for "news" on most blogs and lesser publications.
Was the "GO TO HELL" really necessary? Frustration is understandable, but what do you gain from abusing a customer support person at a large and influential technology company and then vanity posting it to the internet?
Let's say the recipient of your "Dear Apple" email decided to forgive and forget; what you've got left is an announcement to the rest of us about your inability to be civil under stress. Temporary relief aside it pays to be polite. Even on the internet.
All part of being an entrepreneur. It's important to be able to handle these kinds of setbacks and if you're not capable of it either become capable or stop trying.
The process described only works in the US. Internationally, you need to contact DNB and go through the multi-week horror. Eduardo appears to be in Brazil.
In Canada ours took several weeks. Luckily we prepared the submission ahead of time and discovered this was important, so we had one by the time we were ready for submission.
Having said that, the submission process didn't explain what a DUNs number was important for and it seemed like a weird thing to need...i share the frustration.
Interesting -- I am from Canada and AFAIK, even as a Canadian business, you can legitimately submit through the DUNS "US Government contractor" form for free.
I was stuck last year with a tight deadline for one of my enterprise apps (which needed the DUNS for me to publish) and I used this method; it cost me nothing and was complete within a few days.
Same here. I used D-U-N-S Profile Lookup[1] and entered the company's detail (Singapore company). An hour later, I received an email containing the D-U-N-S number from [email protected]
I called up D&B and got my companies DUNS number over the phone right then here in New Zealand, apparently they get a feed from the companies office here and just allocate them whenever a new company is incorporated - which happens quite a lot, given how lax our company incorporation rules are.
Well now, this is odd. I don't know if it's because of the recent background check done by the US Government, or associating with the Microsoft App Store -- either of which (timing-wise) seemed to prompt Dunn & Bradstreet to call me and sell on their services -- but I started the Apple process to secure a number, and the helpfully found the number I apparently already had and emailed it to me.
I never went to D&B to get one, so... anyone know why I have one already?
I can verify that this process is accurate for US companies. I did the same thing late last year. Make sure you use Apple's form to apply for your DUNS number.
The DUNS number is nothing to do with Apple, it's all handled by a separate company and something used internationally by many companies, not just Apple.
1. Why don't you just register as an individual and then convert the account to a company one once you get your DUNS number?
2. Why is it taking so longer to get the DUNS number? I registered my business with the government then applied for the DUNS number and got it instantly via email[1].
> I’ve been building this application for longer than I would like to admit. It looks nice. It is incredibly fast. It’s useful (I’ve been using it a LOT). I learned Objective-C while building it. It will never be a hit but some people would definitely pay the 2,99 USD I was planning to sell it for.
The roadblocks you faced are just silly...but at least you got something out of it (learning Objective-C, the respect of other hackers)...I always try to have a Plan B for any mini-project I work on.... Plan A is that people like and use it. Plan B is I learned a technology/library that I hadn't used before. (sometimes I switch the priority of those two things around).
Hopefully your continued tinkering and exploring gets you a more satisfying job.
I don't see what problem you're solving by open sourcing, therefore this is just a misguided publicity grab.
* The "open letter" goes from addressing Apple to addressing potential developers.
* What does open-sourcing give you other than people to help you write code for free? You still can't put the app on the app store and therefore can't release it to users.
You can get it on third-party app stores instantly already.
I don't see what problem you're solving by open sourcing, therefore this is just a misguided publicity grab.
If this hiccup is going to stop you creating new things, you're not going to get far.
The problem itself (taking too long to publish the app because of duns number requirement) can't be solved without waiting (or money), really.
I'm not really solving any problem by open sourcing it, but as I give up developing for the app store my idea is to open source it, build a small group of developers, find someone smarter than me to work with.
I don't think selling apps on the app store is a viable source on income for small developers right now. Yes, we hear a lot of success cases, but the number of failures are enormous.
It's best that you give up now. The app submission and approval process also requires patience. As do all the stupid users with their stupid questions and stupid one star reviews because they don't understand how it works.
And the paperwork around income statements, balance sheets, depreciation, and taxes is horrible. Business licenses, legal documents, blah blah blah.
Like I said, it's best that you quit before you even get to the really frustrating stuff.
Why not just team up with a publisher? They submit the app using their Apple ID, they help with marketing, reviews, etc. They get a cut of the profits, but it sounds like it would be worth it in your case.
Middle men only exist when they add value to the equation, except in extreme circumstances. People that want to do everything themselves can do so, but they may not have the resources (time, skill, or money) to be effective at all that stuff that would otherwise magically happen. I just submitted my first app to the App Store on Sunday (yay, review time!) and as I was doing so realized there was a ton of stuff I had never really considered.
Your plan is to just throw this on GitHub and hope for the best? If it is you should definitely consider waiting for the DUNS number, the amount of users you're going to reach in the App Store compared to on GitHub is just enormous, also your app looks great and I would buy it for sure, but I would compile it myself because of the effort it would take.
Don't feel too down. The first time I wrote a major software business project for myself I saved up $50k (To cover rent, living and utilities), resigned from work and spent a year developing it. I ran out of money and it never sold very well and I definitely am yet to recoup anywhere near the costs of development but eventually I realised while I'd not gained any financial benefits I had picked up some very good skills as a web developer which were in great demand on the local jobs market. I started that year knowing no javascript and very little html, css or other web technologies.
With the new skills I was able to land a great job as a web developer and am always working on side projects. Even if Apple have screwed you over, don't get disheartened ... they can't screw you out of the skills you've learnt; they're invaluable. Keep that in mind when you're feeling down.
I'm always sad when people treat open source as a dumping ground for abandoned/old/unprofitable projects. The rest of my sympathy went away when he misspelled 'substantial' and signed off with an all-caps 'GO TO HELL'. Classy.
But, make no mistake, this is probably a profitable project. In fact, I was planning on making a living out it! I promise I'm not just dumping this
I misspell a lot, sorry, english is not my first language (not even second, actually). Normally I use a spell checker, somehow that passed.
Yep, the e-mail didn't end very well. My point was to try to convey rage to the reader (crazy guy punching computer). Just like people yelling at airline employees when something happens to their flights.
In my opinion, your rage is misplaced and make you look as though you haven't thought things through at all. Do you really think it is just a case that writing an app will instantly lead to $$$?
You can still release it to the app store later if things come around! Hopefully sharing the code will improve the quality of the app as well as inspire others.
I had an update get pushed in 4 days (two Saturdays ago till the Wednesday after), and just submit a new app this Saturday.
For those interested, here's a shameless plug: http://subvertapps.com/HN - it's a HN reader with, what I think, is the best UI on the App Store for it.
Edit: I should say it's about to come out. Once Apple accepts it. This is more of a sneak-peek.
Depends if you get rejected. Some of the apps we ship have been bounced back by apple 5+ times for very minor reasons taking up to 8 weeks to get approval in one very worst case.
Lame, You are mostly doing something wrong. When I needed a DUNS here in Norway it took me less then 48 hours at no cost, I just went to this site http://fedgov.dnb.com/webform
At first I was interested in Android, really. Mostly because I'm an experienced Java programmer. Out of curiosity I started playing with Objective-C and Xcode and loved it. I was also building some toys for android, but I felt I was not learning anything cool, so I lost interest.
>I give up making software for you app store. Your DUNS number requirement was the last straw. I’ve been waiting 2 months for this number and was told I need to wait another month (60 working days total) unless I pay a substancial amount of money. So, please, GO TO HELL.
And yet tons of other developers and companies seem to do just fine in the App Store, without juvenile crap like this.
A rant like this coming from people that have been seriously screw by Apple, I would understand. But you don't even have the app made yet by your own admission.
You have a half-finished app, that "you learned Objective-C while building it".
And somehow it's the DUNS that slows down your path to world domination and profit?
Why do you need a DUNS in the first place? An individual doesn't need one, and a company knows better than to blame another company for something a THIRD company handles and that even the government makes a requirement to do business with you.
Don't release it under the GPL. Due to Apple app store restrictions, GPL'ed apps cannot be distributed that way. It's probably best to pick a BSD or Apache style license.
Being an app developer is frustrating even on Android. Getting publicity for your app is difficult. Margins are thinner than you think because prices are low and your time isn't free.
My feeling is that the market is currently oversupplied with app developers and it needs to cool down. More posts like this would be good to counter the gold rush mentality of the past few years. There just isn't that much money in apps, unless you own the App store.
I also don't see learning Objective C as being that useful, unless you want to continue being an iOS developer... which it seems that you don't. Remember, your main career goal as a developer is not to paint yourself into a corner.
Him being the sole owner of the property can simply release the code under the GPL and use Apple's license for the Store's binaries.
There are no GPL'ed apps. There is GPL'ed code. Owners of the code can decide to do multiple licenses depending on what they want to do with it.
If I make an app I can make it GPL and then keep on developing it myself and after a ton of changes release a proprietary app and then another ton of changes and that third version of the code make it GPL as well and at the same time put the binary up on a place like the App Store and at the same time put the code somewhere else with a BSD license and then again somewhere else post it as public domain.
It'd be a silly thing to do, but as the owner of the property its your prerogative what you do with it.
This silliness about the GPL and the Store needs to stop. It's misinformation all-round. A different thing is that you can't take someone's GPL code and build an App Store app with it (unless you get permission and a special license from all owners of the copyright).
As for Objective-C it works for other platforms and if he actually prefers just Cocoa he still has OS X as a potential platform (plus whatever Apple decides to incorporate in the future, if they ever expand). Your main career goal as a developer should be making a living developing and, ideally, make boatloads of cash. Painting yourself into a corner may, if anything, be bad strategy; but only if it hinders that objective.
Posts like these are not good because they're misinformed and spread misinformation. They transfer blame so they do nothing to assuage the actual problems:
1.-People who plan on making a living developing should have a backup plan. It may not be as easy as they think.
2.-People who plan on making a living developing and are smart about having a backup plan should first "test the waters" before they go full-blown corporate. Develop and release some apps as an individual. See how they behave. Especially if they're your first apps after learning the language and the platform.
3.-Setting up companies is hard and tests everyone's patience. This needs to be ACCEPTED. No matter what your rush, the bureaucracy walks at its own glacial pace. Better understand it early. Also: Frustration shouldn't equal anger.
4.-Document yourself. DUNS is an industry-standard. It's a horrible one and they are scammy and artifically bureaucratic (so they can sell you the shortcuts) but the requirement it's been there for a while and there's plenty of information on how to make it less painful.
5.-Learn where to put blame and focus your frustration. Ask around and find shortcuts and workarounds. DUNS is not Apple and while Apple's requirement of DUNS is frustrating it has its reasons. If selling in the store makes sense to you financially then wait out the free registration from DUNS or decide to pay to get it faster.
If patience is not your virtue you might not be shaped to be an entrepeneur anyway, so Eduardodm should thank DUNS from helping him get out early, as this is nothing compared to what was yet to come.
So you chose to be extremely pedantic, and point out that apps that are dual-licensed under the GPL and some other license can be distributed in the Apple app store. That doesn't invalidate my point, which is that if you want people to actually be able to use the iOS code you wrote, you need to release it as something other than GPL.
"Learn where to put blame"-- yeah, put it on the people who caused the problem: Apple and DUNS. Anything else is just blaming the victim. If Microsoft pulled this kind of shit, there would be a shitstorm to end all shitstorms. As it is, we have a bunch of fanboys telling you to blame yourself. Good luck with that, buddy.
Honestly, this seems a bit like a publicity stunt to me. Everyone loves hating on Apple these days, and if you can tie it to "look at my new opensource project", then BAM, it hits HN front page.