Perhaps I should be more concerned about the security and privacy issues with smart TV's, but what really annoys me is the (un)planned obsolescence aspect. In a few years I know that manufacturer will have zero interest in keeping the software updated to support new services and updated apps and I'll wind up with a bloated, broken UI. I'd much rather that "Smart" TV's just include their own proprietary stick that plugged into the HDMI input and could be replaced with a current generation streaming stick in a few years. I know there are good economic and business reasons for not doing this, but it'd be a real selling point for me.
We have teams at Roku releasing new firmware images for all of the smart TVs that have shipped on our platform, going back to the original "Liberty" models from 2014. It's a pain, especially with streaming services getting more and more bloated, but we've managed to keep them all going.
In our case, we've got a financial incentive that some TV manufacturers don't have, as people keeping the older TVs going and connected to the Roku service means more people using channels where we participate in the advertising or subscription revenue.
I mean, six years old isn't exceptionally old for a TV, so it's not great to hear what a pain it is. My parents had the same TV in the living room for over 20 years. My current TV is a Vizio from 2012 and there is nothing wrong with it.
I'm still rocking a high end plasma from the late 2000s that I bought for the World Cup. Pictures still fantastic.
What's left out is that Roku is no longer a neutral third party device. Those "channels" are actually rent-seeking ala the App Stores. That's why they fought with HBO Max to be a middle man and collect their troll toll:https://variety.com/2020/digital/news/hbo-max-roku-talks-war...
The annoying cable contract negotiations that customers despise are now going to be a feature of cord cutting. That's a crummy development.
I worked for one of ROKU's suppliers for a decade. I know I'd had been in a support role for a few things related to ROKU, and I salute the attitude but I can guarantee you its not normal.
At my former employer, the moment your contract ran out, we shut down your servers. In addition the way our accounting was structured, sales/project management were judged by revenue, committing to sustaining engineering was the surest way to tank your bonus-- all expense, no profit.
Do I agree this is a terrible and unethical business practice? Yes.
It's the same issue with phones. If manufacturers settled on a hardware configuration that prioritized hardware compatibility and discovery like x86 computers and ARM servers do by implementing things like BIOS or EFI, ACPI, unlocked bootloaders, etc, we'd be able to treat these devices the same way we do with our desktops and laptops.
Theoretically, we'd be able to download some generic OS image and load them onto devices like we can with Linux ISOs and x86 laptops whenever manufacturers decide to stop supporting older devices.
Instead, each device is a custom hardware configuration, with peripherals hardcoded to specific addresses instead of attached to enumerable buses.
Unfortunately, it's much cheaper and easier to design custom SoCs with custom bootloaders for each device than it is to go the compatibility and discovery route that x86 manufacturers did decades ago, and that ARM servers do today.
Sadly, as manufacturers turn to custom ARM SoCs for laptops and desktops, they're also walking away from hardware compatibility and discovery, which means that the days of being able to load generic Linux images on your computers are coming to an end.
For example, with some ARM Chromebooks and all ARM Macs, you can't just boot a generic ARM Linux ISO, because ARM SoCs are custom and unique hardware configurations that lack ACPI etc. This is the reason you need to use a custom Linux image for Raspberry Pis, instead of using generic ARM ISOs like you can on ARM servers, and it's the same reason that a lot of work needs to be done before Linux will work well on M1 Macs.
> Theoretically, we'd be able to download some generic OS image and load them onto devices like we can with Linux ISOs and x86 laptops whenever manufacturers decide to stop supporting older devices.
That’s exactly how GNU/Linux smartphones Librem 5 and Pinephone work.
> Do those phones have UEFI and ACPI support, or SBSA[2] support? If so, can you point me to where I can read more about it?
This question is beyond my knowledge, but you can already install >17 operating systems on Pinephone (https://xnux.eu/p-boot-demo/) and >3 on Librem 5 (PureOS, Mobian, postmarketOS [1]), so it should be there.
It doesn’t have UEFI–it uses u-boot instead. To test whether it has ACPI support, someone who has the phone should do this:
sudo apt install acpi
acpi -V
To determine its level of SBSA would take hours of reading the spec and testing each thing in the spec, and I doubt that very many people care about SBSA.
It's going to be ridiculously annoying once the security professionals start finding exploits for smart TVs and have them worming around the internet - the vendors will be glacially slow to respond, if they do at all. It's going to take an act of market regulation to make them even try to patch old tvs and ensure basic functionality of disconnected tvs. Especially if this aggressive autodiscovery and autojoin stuff ever proves out, and/or they take the logical next step of throwing in a low speed cellular modem like auto manufacturers have.
We're going completely backwards by introducing cruftware into tvs that will be thrown away by the vendor in a year or two - however long it takes for a warranty on that batch to run out. Whatever it takes to sell the next TV at Black Friday I guess.
That's why standards like ETSI 303 645 exist and legislation is being created. Although most of it is around "just buy a new one when this is unsupported".
Speaking of unplanned obsolescence: My Samsung TV came with a remote that has a fairly prominent "EXTRA" button that I never used. Until I pressed it one day and it told me that the "EXTRA" service (whatever it was), was terminated a couple of years ago. Well, no big regret there, but I find it ridiculous that buttons on your remote become "obsolete" and perform no function apart from telling you that some service or other (which you never even knew about) is no longer available.
Had the same thing with a roku remote and (I think) some music service that was one of the three non-reprogrammable "shortcut" buttons on it. That remote is pretty minimal (power, d-pad, ok button, and those three buttons) so it sticks out like a sore thumb.
> I'd much rather that "Smart" TV's just include their own proprietary stick that plugged into the HDMI input and could be replaced with a current generation streaming stick in a few years.
Was glad to see this response here. It's similar to me with the situation we had where high-end automobiles used to put a lot of effort into their touchscreen "entertainment" systems: systems that always sucked and made an otherwise-luxury car feel like a PC Junior. Thankfully, most of them have switched over to Android Auto or Apple CarPlay, where I get a MUCH better UI that, importantly, I can update on a much more frequent basis than my entire car, from companies that know how to build digital UIs.
High end "dumb TV" plus Chromecast (or whatever competitor) is the best solution for me.
It's really amazing. A few years ago I had to drive a Mercedes S-Class every so often. Ironically, it was easily the least pleasant driving experience I've ever had short of a U-Haul. This was entirely because they decided to get creative with the controls, and did a bad job of it. The first time I drove it, I ended up having to pull off the road in order to safely figure out how to change the radio station. Operating the cruise control wasn't worth the effort. And I never did figure out advanced tasks like turning off the air conditioning.
You're spot-on regarding the horrendous nav interface on the Mercedes. I found it dangerously unusable. When I posed that concern to the MB dealer I was rather snidely informed they had training available to teach people how to use it.
I think the OP knows they exist. But the point being that the TV still ships with a TV OS that is out of date in 2-3 years. It'd be nice to buy a high quality 4K HDR TV panel with a barebones OS to select sources and tweak the picture.
Like, even if I used a Chromecast and only a Chromecast, my TV would still be an Android TV that randomly crashes now and then or has audio which randomly cuts out.
There's at least 3 different manufacturers that make these things. There's absolutely no reason to point out ChromeCast over Roku or Amazon's FireStick, e.g.
Mostly of the “smart” features on my Panasonic are now dead. Netflix still works, YouTube kinda works and that’s about it. It’s frustrating but it’s hard to see how to get around it.
Long term support is very expensive and tv sales in the mass market seem to be very price sensitive. Seems to be a choice between pricing it such that you can support it, and not sell any or price it competitively and have no cash to update it. I guess that’s where the ad-supported idea came from as well. The only way I see this changing is if hackers figure out how to mass-brick them.
I have a 2018 Panasonic 4K OLED and it’s a fantastic TV. So good they they’re reference displays for calibrating movies in Hollywood apparently.
It’s well made, it’s one centimeter thick, and while the smart features still work, I only seldom use Netflix (because it’s 4K, but there is hardly ever anything I want on Netflix.) All the rest goes through Kodi (which can also play YouTube without ads from my phone) and my receiver for airplay or Tidal.
The TV works just fine if not connected to the internet and I use nextdns on it to block all the telemetry along with a firewall rule to not allow any other dns.
There are no ads anywhere in the menus, it’s got tons of video calibration options, turns on in two seconds flat, and the menus are fast (although I never need them)
But I think they only sell in Europe now, they’ve left US and Canada.
They stopped making their own panels in 2016. They still make TVs - I know you know this but you comment is confusing. Mine is also pre-2016 and pretty decent.
Unfortunately they are probably GPL2, which RMS once said "and then I had to add freedom 0 to let you actually RUN the software" before coming out with GPL3.
Would it make much of a difference when those same device makers which it would affect normally lock down their devices completely and don't ever expose any of the functionality of the linux kernel to the end user? Would we miss out on a few patches for drivers?
Heh, you don't have to wait a few years. Just open the box and find a awkard UI, terrible Menu interface, and generally poor experience. Try any new TV, then try a new Roku. I find the roku experience much better, and it's got clients for anything you can name. I use Netflix, Amazon prime, and youtube mostly, but there's 100s of others. Roku seems pretty good with keeping their devices up to date software wise for many years. It's also way cheaper to upgrade a roku than replacing a TV.
I caved in and got a smart one (Xiaomi 4S) a few weeks ago. It’s actually not as bad as I imagined. I can still press a single button to switch the input source to what I want to, and it will remember that input. Though I guess if you want to use it as a TV instead of a living room computer screen, that’s still a problem; but then from all the reviews, it sucks as a TV in several ways.
I bought my last TV, a Samsung, about 6 months after it was released.
As soon as I connected it, I got an alert that Samsung was discontinuing support for their Community 3D or some stuff app you were supposed to social media on your TV.
It all made me consider that Samsung forgot their core business in TVs should have been the TV.
I now own an LG OLED that is amazing, and coincidently black holed at the router.
I have a Samsung from 2014 or so and Netflix, Youtube still work great (used every day) and there are dozens of other apps available for all sorts of purposes. My wife uses the national news one several times a werk. And yes I also have a chromecast but the ux of requiring your phone to play something on the tv is vastly inferior to just using the tv. I'm not quite sure what all.the whining about smart tvs is about, maybe it really is bad when using budget tvs, but for mine it has worked great for years (so does the dlna client on it btw; it's a bit spartan but works just fine, and we've watched a lot of content through it).
I wouldn’t count on it. There will always be a need to connect external peripherals, and they’ll just continue to update the spec to expand its capabilities.
HDMI 2.1 supports 4K120 and 8K60, I expect that alone will be sufficient into the 2030s.
It is dying. I've got a mess of monitors that are VGA/DVI, and the video cards don't always have that output anymore. Some do... but watching them fade. VGA maxes out at 1920x1200 or so before you need to make the jump to DVI. Think dual link DVI starts at 2560x1440.
If you know of a 3080 that has DVI, I'm interested.
it's dying off as a source, but my guess is it will remain as an input for a long time. the TV I bought this year still has component video inputs. when's the last time you bought a piece of equipment that only outputs analog video?
There are no options that push pixel clocks that native RAMDACs can. The Delock 26297 (which needs to be imported from Germany) can hit about 250 MHz, which is enough for most uses. Unfortunately, the connector is total rubbish and causes serious signal integrity issues. I have two and one of them can barely hit 150 MHz.
There is a USB-C option which can supposedly hit 300 MHz.
RAMDACs hit 400 MHz. It’s a real shame they’re not in new cards. Hence my point: VGA is dead because it isn’t in new hardware.
the best non smart TVs are crap relative to the "smart" TVs. the top of the line TVs made by LG, Panasonic, Sony, Samsung (and vizio, tcl, hisense.....) are all smart. If you insist on a TV without smart features, you will be sacrificing picture quality.
the closest you can get is with a projector, and even projectors suffer when it comes to HDR content where you want both brightness and as inky blacks as you can get.
I have to wonder if there isn't a market for "boutique" dumb TVs, which cost a little more (due to smaller scale) but have all the expected picture quality features (HDR, etc) and maybe have a nicer case/exterior than typically found on consumer TVs.
You can get a Beovision by Bang & Olufsen, but then you need to get the big card out as they are pretty expensive compared to a standard off the shelf smart-tv, as they are more a design item than anything else.
What a rubbish site. It correctly identified I'm not in the US (I'd be happy if it didn't), but then redirects me to the homepage of my local del site, rather than the page with AW5520QF on it.
This is a famous tactic of Best Buy as well. Redirect you to their sight home page no clue how to find the product I was just looking at. I immediately leave their site and shop elsewhere.
Well yes, but as I said in another comment, if you rename the input source as "PC" it is as good if not better than any PC monitor. It won't do any picture processing, has sub 10ms reaction time, supports G-Sync.....yes it has all the functions of a smart TV, but it works great as a PC monitor if you need it too.
As another commenter in the thread mentioned, televisions and high end gaming displays are often optimized differently (I don’t know what this means for an OLED display, just speaking generally here-so take that as far as pleasant conversation will permit) Which admittedly isn’t something a lot of people care about, though I would reckon if one is about to drop three big ones on a video display source it probably matters more to them than it would to the rest of us.
Right, so just so you know - the LG OLEDs are particularily well suited for it, because if you rename the input source as "PC" it is treated as a special source with absolutely no processing applied to it, full 4:4:4 bandwidth enabled, and many reviews have measured the response time in sub 10ms range - same as top-end PC monitors. It might not be the case for many other displays, but those OLEDs work brilliantly for that use case(having said that, I probably would still advise against it, unless you mostly play games/watch movies, since OLED burn-in is still very real)
I recently upgraded displays to a widescreen 4k display, and "OLED burn-in" was something I routinely came across while shopping around (not that I was in the market for OLED specifically because OLED, but more just "seeing what's out there" in that spec). Ended up settling on an Acer Nitro because it was on sale at my local Microcenter. Has done it's job quite well for me--but I'm also one of kinds of people who buys a thing and uses it until the screws are falling out before upgrading and otherwise considers good enough, heh.
Well, at least in the case of LG OLED, some thought has been put into the gaming application. They support game mode (very common), black frame insertion (less common), and adaptive sync (new and expensive) in their entry level OLED displays. It ticks every box I have for a gaming display, except for the “costs $0” box.
In the mid 90s we paid more for a smaller tv. Big screen TVs used to be something really special that impressed visitors. You just proved how tv manufacturers are catering to what the customers actually want.
It's not a surprise, TBH. As someone who likes their technology simple, I find that feature bundling like this is the norm in just about every product space nowadays.
My guess is that market research has found that "people who both want to pay for nicer image quality and don't want smart features" is not a large enough slice of the market to be worth going after. That, or they've found that people who do fall into that market will generally, when forced to choose, accept the smart features (upsell! ka-ching!) rather than choose a less expensive model in order to avoid the smart features.
The value of the usage/tracking information they collect basically subsidizes the real cost of the TV. Similar to other "free" Internet services where you are the product.
They basically don't need to bother with more expensive non-smart TVs. A cheap tv with good picture quality is a win-win.
I have a 55" commercial LG "Wallpaper" OLED and it is "dumb" and gorgeous – and mounts flat to the wall at only 4mm thick! No 4K, no HDR, don't miss them a bit. No apps, no ads, no features at all really; one HDMI in, which I have connected to an Apple TV via a Denon HEOS AVR.
Yea. I picked up a CX, and holy moly, I’d miss 4K, HDR, VRR, and the response time.
These commercial units are great; but you aren’t just losing the dumb apps and potential spying/metrics/whatever. You always miss out on real features too.
I paid $1800 for a 65CX and immediately black holed its MAC address at the router. I love it.
A pi-hole operates (usually) by intercepting DNS requests and returning bogus results if the request is for a known ad host. That's an application layer activity; other requests for non-ad (or unknown ad) hosts would succeed. So a pi-hole blocks some application layer activity but not all.
MAC addresses are a link layer concept, and a router is a network layer device. Having a MAC address blocked at a router would prevent that MAC address from using the router's function, which in this context means that the device holding that MAC address (the tv) would be unable to send and receive data through the router at all; the TV would be unable to access any site on the internet, ad-related or not.
Depending on what other devices you have on your local network which you might want to use with your TV, it might be easier to just not plug the TV into the network at all.
If I'm not misunderstanding things, a PiHole only "works" if the device actually use it for DNS. If the device uses hardcoded (or whatever) DNS-servers the lookups will bypass your PiHole.
Just don't put it on the Internet? What's wrong with that? For "Smart" TVs that have obnoxious screens just to switch inputs - ignore them. I still have a great stereo receiver and it does all my switching.
Yes, I prefer non-smart TVs but you can also treat most of them as dumb TVs and they still work fine. If I ever did end up with one that refused to work if it wasn't online I'd take the sucker back.
I have ZERO intention to ever use the software bundled with a TV for all of the reasons others talk about in this thread. It's just not that big a deal to use something else as the source for my content.
I also recommend rtings. I used it extensively when I was researching two new recent TV purchases. Their review and analysis is very detailed and technical.
However, If you are in the market for a modern TV - be sure to look at the OLED technology - OLED is amazing. This video shows an example of how the OLEDs self-light - and how that tech is great for viewing star-fields
Also has amplifier for 7.1 surround sound speakers. I'm continually amazed at the amount of people who think a receiver/speaker system is exotic. Sigh...
Unfortunately, commercial displays are typically much more expensive and lack a lot of the modern picture-quality features most people would consider requirements at this point like 4K and HDR.
There was, indeed, a sweet spot between 2010-2012 (or so) wherein 4k content and HDR, etc., were not yet widespread but very nice commercial display panels @ 1920x1080 had dropped in price to around $1000 or $1200.
I bought a brand new NEC P461 (you've seen these used as departure/arrival boards in airports) in 2011 ... it's a heavy duty piece of industrial gear, was totally "dumb" in terms of networking and features, and had a very small bezel.
It has been perfect these past ten years and I use it every day as the fourth monitor on my mac pro ... but my grandparent is correct: 4k commercial displays with high end picture features either don't exist or are extremely expensive.
Consider: if you need a 4k commercial display, you are encourage to simply combine 4 1080p displays into a 2x2 video wall. For this reason, there is not as much demand from end users for high resolution commercial displays as perhaps you'd think there would be ...
EDIT: I was curious as to what the landscape was like at the end of 2020 and I see:
(which is the Samsung LH50QMREBGCXZA) selling for roughly $1000 USD (or $1200 CAD). I see that it is a "Cisco Certified Compatible Display" which gives me pause ... but I think I will get one of these and see how it behaves ...
EDIT 2: The samsung model is described as having "Built-in Wi-Fi and Bluetooth" which is sort of a deal breaker ... we'll see.
I bought 4x95" screens in 2016, they had an ethernet connection which allowed remote control (to connect to an isolated vlan). Sadly some proprietary interface so in the end I just used the supplied remotes to control them (brightness, OSD timers, etc).
I just bought a projector. It solves so many issues - first of all it's dumb as fuck (zero "smart" features), two I can only use it once it's dark out and three I always unplug all the cables so if I want to relax I have to go through the effort of plugging it in and focusing it on my wall. On top of all of these benefits, I don't have to look at a stupid piece of plastic and glass mounted to my wall.
Love my projector. If anyone's on the fence, please know that you don't need a projector screen, your plain wall will be fine. Blackout curtains aren't needed either. And if you have an old nonfunctional fireplace in your home the cable routing is 80% sorted already.
I have a portable projector. I enjoy being able to move it around the apartment. It was a great purchase. I prefer a giant 720p screen to large 4k screen, at least for movies.
Regarding the Pi-Hole issues... a few days ago, I decided to set up firewall rules to block all outgoing DNS and DNS-over-HTTPS traffic, except one coming from my Raspberry Pi. I discovered two things:
My nVidia Shield TV was desperately trying to connect to Google's DNS. So yeah, I wasn't being paranoid!
My phone's Google Play Store refused to work without using Google's DoH. That's the troublesome side effect if DoH.
Generally to check I just use Wireshark, but if they're big enough (Google), they'd probably talk about it. Also, ESNI isn't even the default in Firefox, and it's just straight up not implemented in Chrome.
You have to watch out for the TVs that attempt to connect to public networks. So pray your neighbors have passwords on their wifi and didn't opt in to Comcast's hotspots.
I'm not sure why they used "screenshot", because they actually take a fingerprint/hash of the material being displayed. It's much more compact and way more practical.
I'm not sure if smart TVs come with always on recording capabilities (Siri, Alexa style) yet but that's a possible avenue to leak private audio of your viewing area.
Dunno why people are downvoting you - there is more truth than many would like to admit, apparently.
I'm loathe to buy a new car since they all come with cellular modems. How long before insurance companies start demanding access to them? I plan on taking really good care of my older vehicles and hope I never have to replace them.
If you buy a "non-smart TV", unless you plan to use it with an analog tuner or something, you're going to plug in boxes, and those potentially carry the privacy-invading bogey man.
There is literally no difference, in this regard, between a dumb TV with a dongle/box plugged in, and a smart TV which has exactly the same thing built-in.
The nice thing about a dumb TV, such as the one I have is:
- simplicity of operation/configuration. I never have to fiddle with any menus in my dumb TV. You turn it on and it's ready to go. All the HDMI inputs have dedicated buttons on the remote control, so switching inputs is easy. Changing picture mode: dedicated button. Other than for switching inputs, I don't use the TV remote at all. The Android TV box's remote is a beautiful thing of simplicity. Smart TVs running Android TV come with complicated remote controls: the "android box" feature built inside doesn't have its own simple remote (unless you buy an after-market one, I suppose).
- portable "brains": the box or dongle you plug into it fits into a coat pocket. Take it anywhere and watch your content (anywhere, modulo possible geographic restrictions, for which you need a VPN).
- portable "brains": possibility of upgrading the TV, without the hassle of re-installing apps and logging into each one: just out with the old TV, in with the new. Logging into apps on a new device is particularly a pain if you're mooching logins off friends and relatives!
- the ability to shut the TV off, yet have content keep playing and listen to the audio. This is possible if your Android box has an audio jack! I absolutely love this. I hate visual content burning pixels on the screen when I'm just listening to music.
> There is literally no difference, in this regard, between a dumb TV with a dongle/box plugged in, and a smart TV which has exactly the same thing built-in.
I mean, the TV is usually much more expensive than the dongles that get attached to it. I don't love replacing a $30 dongle every few years, but it doesn't hurt my wallet too bad. replacing a whole $500-1500 TV every few years is a big deal.
ultimately I've made my peace with the whole smart TV thing. my current one does a much better job streaming high bitrate local media than a chromecast. whenever it stops getting updates, I will probably just buy a NUC to use as a source, and use it as an unnecessarily complicated dumb TV.
There is a huge difference between a smart TV and those “boxes”. I trust Apple, Roku, and even google more than smart TVs producers. They also provide support, have a demonstrated interest in providing security updates, and at least in the case of Apple don’t profit off spying on you.
Smart TVs have been repeatedly caught spying on people, both indirectly by reporting what you watch, and directly with microphones. They’ve been caught injecting their own ads into content that you’ve already paid for. They seldom, if ever, get any updates, and even those that do get less long term update support than generic android phones.
> There is literally no difference, in this regard, between a dumb TV with a dongle/box plugged in, and a smart TV which has exactly the same thing built-in.
There is a big difference. If someone comes out with a privacy respecting box to plugin, I can justify spending $50-$100 to use that instead of the box I have that works fine. If someone comes out with a privacy respecting quality TV, I'm not going to buy it to replace a working TV.
Currently going with a TV with smart features that I don't use. Hopefully it doesn't pull a 'must connect to network' stunt after a while as I've heard some do.
> There is literally no difference, in this regard, between a dumb TV with a dongle/box plugged in, and a smart TV which has exactly the same thing built-in.
To be clear, some of the commercial units people recommend are missing features like HDMI 2.1, 4K, HDR or DolbyVison, etc compared to their “retail” counterparts.
You really need to know what you are looking at when you consider commercial units.
Well, not the specific "you" referring to me; I use my Android Box (Chromecast with Google TV would work also) for Japanese IPTV. This cannot be installed on the plain old Chromecast. Furthermore, that IPTV application, though it runs well on phones, is one of those that doesn't cast.
We use casting quite a lot in my household, but only for a handful of things that can't be installed on Android TV. The UX of Chromecast is sub-par compared to just using an installed app with the remote, but Chromecast plugs the gaps: connecting mobile-only content to the living room TV.
I bought an LG smart TV because the picture looked good and it was a good price. I have never enabled any smart features and it’s disconnected from the internet. I have an Apple TV box that I use as my tuner.
Depends. I was able to program my parents DirecTV remotes to do the input switching so they can go between their DirecTV boxes and the Apple TVs - the only LG specific remote code that we needed. I guess the DirecTV remotes learned the volume up/down and power too. Everything else is handled by the other boxes and their respective remotes.
Anything dumb and oled? I'd like to upgrade my LG 1080p but not yet found a top quality image but with dumb internals. So far, I just don't connect to Wi-Fi.
Something I have noticed with my smart tv is that it takes a significant time to boot up before it's able to inputs... This is progress, I guess...
It's like we are right back to waiting for the CRT to warm up. Why do all consumer electronics have such latency these days? Buy a $20k car and the software lags turning on the FM radio. This is the world we've built.
Worse, the software lags turning OFF the radio. If you left the radio running a little loud last time you turned off the car, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it for 30 seconds. The on/off switch and volume knob are ineffective. And this was a $30k car.
You can buy commercial OLED displays for a lot more. Considering there really aren’t any mass produced OLED computer monitors yet, this is a rather limited market.
The LG OLEDs run Linux and have been rooted in the past with public CVEs/PoCs, so I’m sure a moderately talented reverse engineer could get code execution and strip out a lot of the crap.
Probably easier to start a community around that instead of hoping for a good commercial model.
I really hated SmartTVs and would actively avoid them, but I recently got one of the Roku branded TVs and it's actually quite good. Roku has always been great for me in terms of software updates, availability of streaming services, and good-enough UI that everyone in the family can use it.
Aren't roku devices notorious for gathering data on how you use their hardware and what you watch? In fact as far as I know you can't even use their TVs without actually creating an account with them. If this is still true, it's completely NUTS!
When you set up a Roku TV, you have the option to never connect to the Internet and use it as a dumb TV. In that mode, no WiFi or Ethernet connection is active and there's no connection to a Roku account.
If you've already connected the TV, you can factory reset it to an unconnected state.
You're placing too much trust into the effectiveness of pi-hole and its associated filter lists. Here are some failure modes I can think of:
* using fallback hardcoded IPs when DNS fails
* using DoH so it's impossible to tamper with the response
* using the same domain for spying as other critical functions
* new domains might not show up on the filter lists right away, and if the TV keeps a backlog of failed requests, all your viewing history might be uploaded when that happens
The best non-smart TV technology is probably a decent 4K consumer projector. They cost between 2000 to 3000 dollars. While there are some trade offs (consumer 4k projectors aren't real 4k but rather display 4 1080p images... it's weird), but I haven't run into any of them that come with 'smart' features. The other trade off is that projectors are designed to be for >=100" setups so it's only available as a premium product.
Personally, the introduction of micro LED TVs in the next few years may make 100" TVs an affordable reality so I am a bit bearish on jumping into consumer projector market if you haven't already.
Best bit is to just not connect the TV to the internet. I have not come across a model that requires an internet connection to work.
Can’t see why the non-smart option would be better than the no-internet option. I’d try to find one that can be upgraded from a USB stick so you don’t even need to connect it occasionally.
There were some discussions in the same spirit on previous smart TV threads on HN but I'm not fully sure if there was any real example, or was it just hypothetical discussion which became an urban legend. Any particular examples other than "people say"?
If you check the other comments in this thread, there aren't well documented reports, just hearsay. Given that this is so trivial to replicate (all you need is a smart tv and router/smartphone tethering), you'd think that if the claim were true there would be well documented cases of it happening.
We have a Sony from maybe 8 years ago and it’s fine. Boot time is only a few seconds. Certainly I hardly notice any wait when I grab the Apple TV or Switch and wake it up. It switches to the appropriate input automatically as it wakes. That’s about all we use it for.
It’s a Smart TV in theory but we have never used its ‘features’. It’s not connected to any network and it doesn’t seem to try to connect to wifi sneakily.
Audio is connected out to an amp and speakers and sounds fine.
If it ever breaks (not sure if LCD has a finite lifespan) we’d probably get something similar but would be checking it has the same ability to just act like a monitor with auto input switching and audio out.
Well, some do, sure. I got a new LG CX last month and it's incredibly fast - switches on like my CRT TV used to, it's almost instant. And all the apps work very quickly, menus don't stutter at all......huge change from a Bravia TV I had before, that was like "press a button and wait 10 seconds for something to happen" and you couldn't change the input for at least 30 seconds after switching it on.
Did you read the comment you replied to ? There are no mentions of using the smart features at all, he's talking about useless menus and slow boot time.
I assumed by ”menus” he meant navigating those smart features. Not sure what other menus are frequently used? Settings? Inputs? If you even need to navigate a menu (fast or slow) for everyday use, it must have a terrible UX to begin with.
The smart features are indeed slow on most TVs. Boot times vary.
On some Samsung TVs I have used, and least one model of either TCL or Visio non-smart menu functions are slow and clumsy. Input switching on one "smart" TV in particular (I'm pretty sure it was a Visio) was like a four step process instead of a simple button press. It was really eye opening just how bad designers could screw up something that should literally be a one button press. You can't assume anything with new electronics - some of the UI designs are stupendously horrible.
If you want to constrain yourself from even having that option. Say you only want to watch dvd's or presentations on it but not browse internet/yt/other major 'filler' time wasters. If id buy a tv id probably get a dumb one because of this.
Just don't connect your smart TV to the internet. Those saying running a dumb TV with a dongle is just as privacy invading are wrong. Some smart TV's use content recognition to send back everything you watch to the manufacturer. Viewing times, gaming, music, air TV. They can see everything your screen can and it's terrifying.
With dongles, they can only see what the dongle can. Not my gaming sessions or watching local games over the air.
Beware, some smart TV's will also try to get an internet connection over HDMI.
If you're worried about privacy just don't connect it to the Internet and buy a smart TV stick of your choice instead that you plug into the HDMI port of the TV (or use a Raspberry Pi if you don't trust those either). Problem solved.
Probably 99 % of people are fine with owning a smart TV, so it's clear that manufacturers won't cater to the 1 % that are not fine with it.
There are more legitimate reasons. If you are one of the few people who live in a radio quiet zone, or if you suspect 2.4GHz interference with other 2.4GHz radios you use, or if you develop and test RF gear, you'd want to be able to disable the radio.
Pretty sure you’re being sarcastic saying that’s a valid thing to expect end users to do to opt out. And I agree. Wish mining peoples privacy wasn’t accepted norm.
Smart TVs are relatively cheap compared to large industrial displays. They are also reliable. If you need large secure (no wifi) display, this is pefectly valid option.
There's a thread on Reddit [1] but the poster never replied when people asked about the exact model and no one else reported this behavior, so I'm skeptical (I own a Samsung smart TV and from my experience it always asks you before attempting to connect to any wifi network). From the manufacturers' point of view it wouldn't make much sense auto-connecting to an arbitrary open network as that will in many cases just lead to an unusable connection, so I have a hard time believing Samsung would actually do this. What's more likely is that someone else (spouse, kid) used the TV, selected an open wifi and the TV saved that without OP knowing. But who knows, maybe Samsung is really after us.
Anyway, if you're so worried about the device maker spying on you it's probably best to avoid buying such a device (or any kind of smart device including a smartphone). In that case just use a monitor instead.
Apple, please bring the XDR line to full size TVs and end this bullshit. Making users do deep research on hostile software implementations so they know which features to forego so their privacy is protected... somebody needs to blow this industry up.
There will be not many people willi g to pay the absurd of money required for such an tv. And apple will not release a dumb tv, and even they will at some time deprecate their tv.
I've recently gotten a Philips 558M1RY, after not wanting to get a Smart TV because of UI and privacy issues. It is marketed as a "Console Monitor." I was going to attach a PC to it anyway, as I don't have traditional cable or an aerial. I gotta say it's a bit pricey for its size, though being 4K and HDR, it is not that bad. And I'm not limited to whatever clunky, ad-riddled UI the vendor chose, but can choose my own clunky UI for watching Netflix, etc.
If only HDR support on the PC side wasn't so terrible, it'd be a fantastic setup :/
I've never seen a Philips TV with ads. Is this a US thing?
I have a Philips and it is fantastic. No ads, no microphone, simple UI, full keyboard on the back of the remote, and it links natively with my room lighting and matches the colors of the room to the TV (if desired), and it cost less than other comparative models.
It's been going strong for about 4 years now with no issues, including the UI.
The main difference between a monitor and a TV is the TV comes with a picture processor (upscaling, noise reduction, motion interpolation, image blur reduction, deeper blacks, etc). I have switched from a low-priced Samsung TV to a mid-range Sony TV and these help a lot. Are dumb TV able to do that as well? If I look at the datasheet of the Sceptre U550CV-UMC, they say they do noise reduction, but not much else. Also, reviews are basically non-existant.
Sony takes LG OLED panels and rebrands them with their own signal processing. It REALLY makes a difference if you are into 22fps or 4-4-2 pulldown with movies. Every once in a while Costco has the Sony OLEDs at the same price with the LG's (normally the Sony's are more) - that's the time to buy! Same OLED panel, but Sony's video processing is better so if you catch them when they are price the same pick the Sony!
On a recent Smart TV installation, the multiple EULA alluded to the following:
* if you use the "Who Where What" 'feature', they will take screen shots of what you are watching, send the screenshots home, use "AI" to identify 'things' in the scene - then display relevant advertising - for example, if there is an washing machine on the screen, they will show ads for that.
* if you use their "IP TV" service, they will report home with your usage stats, and share them with advertisers.
* if you use the voice activated remote control microphone, they will send the audio clip home.
* if you use their built in "apps" (Netflix, Youtube, Disney+, etc) they will report home about your usage (and maybe what you watch? TBD)
* they might have an additional content watching service, that takes screenshots and reports them home to identifies of what you are watching.
* System setup has an optional 'user profile' (name, age, zip code, etc), if you fill this informat in, they will share with their advertising partners.
* They will show advertisements on the "home" screen
* they will show advertisements on the "App" screen
* they will show advertisements on the "change input source" screen
* they will show advertisements on their "IP TV" channels
* if you use the built-in web-browser they will report usage home
I have 10 years old samsung smart TV and use it with internet connection but I use firewall on my router to block access to samsung sites. It works perfectly, TV is not able to call home and I can use smart features. If I want to download new firmware it is easy to temporarily disable firewall rules. This is better solution than using 3rd party device as I do not trust them either. But I am not sure if this works for newer models too.
I suspect they get post-sales revenue, so in goes the spyware.
There are basically no companies that can resist this. Even apple with all it's "privacy is a human right" collects all kinds of data and you can't turn it off.
Can’t find it now, but saw some post about a laser projector? I’m guessing it’s not really laser but somehow using better tech. Anybody familiar with those?
Majority are not smart. Expensive compare to regular TVs. Tons of configuration option. You can even change the channel numbers like mapping 56.1 to 5.
I think cheapest LG 4k 49in is like $400. High end is like $600.
Since its not a smart TV, you don't need to connect to the internet or update firmware.
> Do you have any specific recommendations for how/where to buy these?
I like LG, but its not available online to purchase. You have to go through a vendor (I fucking hate that). You can buy some model online on ebay and other places, but they are expensive. You can search for "pro:idiom TV". pro:idiom is a encryption protocol that TV provider uses. TVs are connected directly to the provider cable without a cable box. Pro:idiom is required for HBO.
Its very easy to obtain a digital copy but HBO still requires that their channel must be encrypted.
Nope. They have smart TVs, but they are $100 extra. Also, it will require a robust application and integration so that we can reset it when guest checks out. Which is not available. Most hotels and hospitals doesn't have ethernet near by. Even though half of the models works with iptv (You can assign a channel to a IPTV steam), I don't know anyone who uses it.
Keep in mind that several routers have the ability to block devices from the network. For instance, Google WiFi’s “family WiFi” allows you to pause or schedule pauses for individual devices. This can help you get firmware when you need it and cut out ads/smart features at all other times.
Incidentally I tried to buy a Sceptre TV. It may have been the one mentioned in the article. It arrived with a shattered screen, and I'm not surprised given the flimsy build quality.
You're better off buying a smart TV and not using its smart features. I've never connected mine to the internet.
Build your own TV with a short-throw projector and back projection screen if you a have a spare corner. You can make it look seamless basically like raising a thin artificial wall with a cutout for the screen. You could even hide a subwoofer in that corner and out of sight.
A big problem with TVs right now is the mess that is HDMI 2.1. Companies keep putting out firmware updates to make features like VRR work (somewhat), which is a huge bummer for TV Ethernet-cutters like myself.
2.1 is a mess. VRR works great on the LG CX with Xbox, but other hardware might not fare so well. Same issue as USB iirc, you don’t need to support all the features to advertise its X.x compliant. How these special interest groups allow this I have no idea, it only hurts them.
I think gamma shifting caused by VRR[^1] is still an issue. A lot of people don't notice it, though. LG have been burning the midnight oil fixing issues people realized once they could finally hook their TVs up to HDMI 2.1 devices in the form of next-gen consoles.
There are a lot of HDMI 2.1 features that aren't terribly important, but VRR is definitely one we need to figure out. I feel like we ended up here because VRR was always an optional spec, which is basically Chekhov's technical debt.
As always, there's never a perfect time to buy a new TV.
How do PC monitors today compare with TVs? I wonder if higher end monitors combined with sound bars and chromecast/firestick would be a good enough replacement for the living room TV.
I’m quite fond of my sceptre. It was ~$200 8 years ago and with a $30 roku it is still going strong. Its a 40” lcd but they make all sorts of other sizes.
In past posts on this subject people have noted two problems. The first is that some smart tvs refuse to complete the setup process without an internet connection. Until the setup process is completed, you cannot use the tv. A few people also mentioned older smart tvs effectively becoming bricked because the manufacturer's servers were shutoff, which put their tv into a mode of demanding internet access or the user couldn't use the tv. The second issue is that some tvs will connect to any open network it can find. If your neighbors or anyone nearby has an open connection, the tv will make use of it. Some theorize that eventually smart tvs will have cellular modems included, so they won't even need to use your home network to phone home. Don't believe any tv has been seen in the wild with a cell modem yet.
Outside of the annoyance of having features that go unused, what is the argument against smart TVs if you don’t connect them to the internet? Every single one I have used works offline, still has the necessary inputs, is still a TV.
On my girlfriend's LG smart TV, even something as basic as changing the volume has a noticeable delay. This is a terrible UX, and aggravating beyond description.
