While I agree with the general argument that iOS shouldn’t limit the user’s freedom, it looks to me like Apple actually put in some effort to make this as privacy-preserving as possible.
The article somewhat glosses over it, but you can buy a PASS age verification card at the local post office for 15£. That one is widely accepted and it doesn’t contain unnecessary information that might cause trouble if it leaked (like for example a passport does). And 1 in 3 adults (according to the article) have an Apple account that’s old enough so that they will automatically be unlocked, no further documents needed.
The article strongly accuses iOS of being a walled garden, but I don’t see that as a particularly strong argument after iOS being locked down for ~20 years now.
And as a parent, I know that if child protection is opt-in, there’ll be a huge fight about it, because some other parents won’t activate it, which then makes the situation unfair for the kids. I’d much rather have it on by default so that all kids are treated the same.
The PASS card features your name and photo, it's an ID by any other name.
You must have a very warped perspective of social reality if you think it should be acceptable to force every adult to show their papers before they can do anything in modern society - and all that just so you can avoid your parenting duties. And I say that as a parent.
I'm not worried about my parenting duties. I am worried about the inequality created for the kids if I am strict about rules, but other parents are not. That's why it is in my interest if other (lazier) parents are forced to comply.
And yes, the PASS card has name and photo. But no adress, no social security number or secret ID or equivalent. If your PASS card leaks, nobody can create a bank account in your name. If your passport leaks, they can. That's the difference in privacy, seen in action.
> I am worried about the inequality created for the kids if I am strict about rules, but other parents are not.
Different families can choose to raise their children differently. Please let other parents make their own parenting choices for their own kids.
There are parents who are more strict with their kids than you are in ways you don’t agree with. I guarantee you wouldn’t be happy if they were lobbying to force your kids to obey their chosen set of rules because they didn’t want “inequality”.
zero countries give infinite freedom about how you raise your kids. and if too many parents fail at something probably government should do it for them.
it's like drinking age. you can't send your kid for a beer. you are free to buy beer and let your kid drink a glass. same here. if something is not accessible to the kid directly you can still show it to your kid. you are the parent
> let other parents make their own parenting choices for their own kids
like somebody is taking it away?
you are still free to make your choices, just like with feeding your kid beer or giving them cigs. It's just a healthy default is now applied to average kid for whom parents don't care to make choices. Why do you keep arguing and moving goalposts?
I am not parent comment, and I'm also not in favour of restrictions for all/most people in the name of "the kids" for all the reasons covered in this debate. Invasive age verification feels even worse.
But I gotta tell I am not looking forward to deciding which is worse when my little kids grow up and I either have to:
- let them use TikTok (or whatever it is by then) and suffer what I know to be an insidious poison
- make them be on the outside of the circle and suffer exclusion by their peers because they don't get any of the memes
I've been the only kid in class without the new 18-rated Call of Duty game, or indeed a games console to play it on. At the time, it sucked. In retrospect I totally agree with my parents, young children should not be playing games about shooting each other! (Of course other parents may disagree)
CoD was only the new hotness once every couple of years. TikTok can make something the new hotness every week.
My only real hope to escape this dilemma is that enough other parents in my cohorts realise how poisonous TT is and the problem goes away... I can't say I'm optimistic.
> At the time, it sucked. In retrospect I totally agree
Being parented essentially means rules applied that are in your long term interest despite your own preferences (typically shorter term). When I had to go to bed on time, it sucked. When I had to eat my vegetables, it sucked
The kids who didn't watch soaps, didn't have phones, didn't get to see 15 films... etc, were fine in the end. This isn't a new concern. Every other generation of parents has done it.
Or depressed and suicidal because of being socially excluded in formative years. Let's roll the dice, what's the worst that can happen, more mentally sick adults? Clearly if we look around this is not backfiring in any way.
Imagine if smoking was allowed and considered cool. You basically must your child never allow to mingle with an average kid. If you are too busy at work, if you are single parent, or need a work trip, 100% you come back and your kid is a smoker.
All because what other families are free to decide and they don't give a fuck.
Do you want that world back? Do you have money to live in a gated house with private school and full time nanny and stuff so you can raise your child separately from the average? Must be nice
But are you not worried about the democratic precedent that treating citizens as de-facto minors and arbitrarily withholding information, with little to no oversight, will set? And your kids seeing the fully realized end of that slippery slope ?
What if your government decides that anything LGBT is taboo for kids[1]? Or that informations about say, ongoing genocides, is deemed too graphic for kids.
Won't that also increase the blast radius to people who didn't bother justifying their age, even though they supposedly also have the right to vote?
If your passport leaks, they can [create a bank account]
This seems like a country-specific problem. In Japan, even if opening an online bank account, a photocopy of a passport is simply insufficient to pass identity verification. Additionally, most country passports contain an IC chip that can be used for attestation. Any eKYC system that does not attempt reading data from the IC chip is fundamentally broken.
It should be a total non-issue for photocopies of passports to get leaked.
Those people are not going into the bank with photocopies of passports, they are creating fake passports for that, all they need from the photocopy is the number to put in the fake one.
And in many countries this days you can create a bank accounts using the bank app and all they ask for is a photo of your ID/Passport, now you dont even have to create a good fake for that.
You should be concerned about a government issuing these ridiculous and dangerous controls on what you can do in society. Not whether, within that dystopia it is fair to submit in one way or another.
Also, kids understand perfectly well that different parents have different rules.
I don’t think the government or Apple should be responsible for protecting you from mopey teenagers by blocking free internet access for everyone just so that it “is fair”. Are you even hearing yourself?
Your phone should not have any business whatsoever collecting, checking, or verifying the age of the person using it.
> And as a parent, I know that if child protection is opt-in, there’ll be a huge fight about it, because some other parents won’t activate it, which then makes the situation unfair for the kids. I’d much rather have it on by default so that all kids are treated the same.
If you cared about your children, you would be against this. Otherwise you're fighting against your children's future; their privacy, their sanity, their ability to participate in a functioning democracy.
I’m a parent and I think all of these arguments are ridiculous. You shouldn’t need the force of government across the nation to set boundaries for your own kids.
It’s also getting kind of silly to pretend that these laws are going to stop those other kids’ parents from simply age-verifying their phones for them. These fantasies where the government passes a law and suddenly every parent and child in the country settle into the exact same social norms are just that - fantasy.
Also parent in the UK - strong disagree, it’s part of our parental responsibilities to set this up, not doing it is the same as not watching a newly walking baby on the stairs (/etc). Compromising everyone’s privacy for a subset of lazy parents is a failing of society.
Relatively few newly walking babies have peers whose parents allow them to use stairs unattended making them feel socially excluded for not also using stairs unattended.
Ignoring the existence of peer pressure and calling parents lazy is a failing of individuals.
This is not going to get rid of peer pressure. That existed long before kids had phones and it will continue to be a problem with this.
Parents should be there to teach rather than just restrict. Kids will need to learn how to recognize and deal with peer pressure at some point.
Also Apple definitely benefits from peer pressure generally. Their devices are seen as status symbols, the dreaded green bubbles, maybe more. I wouldn't expect them to do anything to actually improve things in this area.
> because some other parents won’t activate it, which then makes the situation unfair for the kids. I’d much rather have it on by default so that all kids are treated the same.
That’s a strange argument. The government or anyone doesn’t have a mandate to ensure everyone has the exact same experience. Differences in upbringing are normal. I didn’t have a TV growing up while most of my friends did. It might have felt unfair at the time, but it wouldn’t justify the government forcing my parents to get one -> overreach.
Thanks for your comment. It's good to hear from people that want this, as to understand which voters politicians are relying on for support for passing this at a legal level.
However, I fundamentally and ideologically disagree with your views on the matter, and I think your views are incompatible with a free society with checks and balances, and frankly, draconian.
iOS is a walled garden and it will be as strong an argument as ever, regardless of how long iOS has been a walled garden for. Also, don't you see how having to buy your privacy for 15£, even for 0.01£ is ridiculous? And to your last point - a parent can easily bypass all that bullshit if they wanted. They could let their kids use a normal computer without any walled gardens. What's to stop them from seeing 4chan or motherless or anything like that? Nothing. And nothing will unless you force all of society into your dystopic vision of a safe world for kids.
You forgot to mention that the (provisional) driving licence can be issued to 16 year olds.
Full (A1) licence to 17 year olds. It's a proper, full licence, just for a limited power/displacement. Looks proper, "adult".
I don't have iPhone in my household but but I'd very happily ask my nearly 17yo child to try to pass as an adult using their licence to point to the utter stupidity of this.
And to address your last point - the difference is not that Apple is barring adults from the huge portion of the internet (and no, I'm not talking about porn, to address inevitable strawman) unless they submit to the intrusive check.
What proves for me it's malicious, subversive pattern is that it hasn't been widely advertised.
The right way to do it would be to NOT turn it on, but allow to switch "I'm not an adult" option in the settings and then require age check to turn it off. It would require a parent to do it in their child's phone ONCE.
The way it is now is stupid, hostile, so utterly British Government in a way. Great job.
> you can buy a PASS age verification card at the local post office for 15£
If there's one thing the UK internet has taught me is that some brits will throw a fit for every minor inconvenience they face
"Dole appoint at 10am 30min from home!?" Means it's an unsurmountable challenge from them as they might be hangover from the previous day and what do you mean I have to pay the bus fare to get there?
Of course the privacy point stands. But their complaint is not about privacy, is about the effort
The article somewhat glosses over it, but you can buy a PASS age verification card at the local post office for 15£. That one is widely accepted and it doesn’t contain unnecessary information that might cause trouble if it leaked (like for example a passport does). And 1 in 3 adults (according to the article) have an Apple account that’s old enough so that they will automatically be unlocked, no further documents needed.
The article strongly accuses iOS of being a walled garden, but I don’t see that as a particularly strong argument after iOS being locked down for ~20 years now.
And as a parent, I know that if child protection is opt-in, there’ll be a huge fight about it, because some other parents won’t activate it, which then makes the situation unfair for the kids. I’d much rather have it on by default so that all kids are treated the same.