>It is not like we force women who are offended by video game media and the community to play games. If they really dislike it and hate the community, just play single player games or don't play at all.
If just blows my mind that someone can harbor an opinion like this. Women playing games like Halo need to keep their gender a secret or risk being bombarded with constant threats of rape, being called a bitch or a cunt and then finding their inbox filled with pictures of dicks.
And you come in here protecting horrible men for acting in such cruel ways by telling the victims it is their fault for daring to step into a man's world?
How about telling the guys to stop being rude, cruel, vindictive and downright perverted?
Frankly I'm surprised you weren't too embarrassed to submit that post.
If history and religion are any evidence of this, telling people to not be aggressive and violent will literally get you nowhere. Either ignoring these people or making your own communities where such actions are not allowed is probably the only viable options.
They were thinking of ways to erode the peoples' support of the current regime, using non-violent means. That's very different from simply telling people "don't be aggressive or violent."
"It is not like we force women who are offended by video game media and the community to play games. If they really dislike it and hate the community, just play single player games or don't play at all."
No, you don't force us to play games, thank you very much. Women gamers play games because they love them, despite their flaws. I will not be told that I should just 'play single player or don't play at all'. I want change. Just because these attacks from the gaming community are no surprise does not mean that that they are acceptable and should just be allowed to stay that way. Games and the gaming community are both rapidly evolving, and Sarkeesian's project is part of the conversation that promotes a change in both for the better.
Just because you want change doesn't mean you should expect to get it, and yes people have a right to freedom of speech, even the speech you disagree with. Be a grown up and deal with it, you don't get to ban what you don't like.
I don't think tiffchow said she expects to get the change she wants and I don't think Sarkeesian is presuming to tell game developers what they can or can't do. In both cases, I think these women are expressing their particular point of view in a responsible way (one by thoughtfully commenting on HN; the other by creating a series of videos analyzing the issue). In other words, they are both "being grown ups" and "dealing with it." The fact that Sarkeesian is being attacked for pointing a spotlight on what she perceives to be misogyny in the industry is both telling and hypocritical.
I am a male gamer who has been playing games for over two decades and even I feel estranged by a majority of the "AAA games" the industry is pumping out these days. My solution is simple: I don't buy them. That said, I admire those that are taking it even further and trying to start an intelligent conversation about how the gaming medium can mature. To try and stop that discussion and, by extension, stunt the growth of such an expressive medium is absurd to me.
Actually, she is dealing with it by speaking out for change.
People don't (at least, in a free society, shouldn't) get to ban what they don't like, but they can show the damage that certain attitudes cause. The responsible adults among us, including the members of the gaming community, will hopefully see the problem and join in the demand for change. If nothing else, capitalism will step in to help. If there is a market for enjoyable games that don't make the player feel sick to his stomach for the attitudes they portray, someone will step into the void and make games for that market.
However, I'd like to believe that as a society we're enlightened enough to realize when treating people a certain way is simply wrong.
Really? No sympathy? She expressed concern with a current aspect of society and has had her life turned upside down for her trouble. Everyone talks about how this isn't surprising, then makes the jump to it being okay. Stoning for adultery isn't "surprising" in some parts of the world; that doesn't make it okay.
I'm not sure it is fair to call video games male dominated. There are a number of game genres that are predominantly populated by women.
One big challenge is that women are so harassed on these services that they mask their gender, and make it really difficult to know what the M:F ratio actually is.
I'm sure that's the case, but after spending a part of the weekend watching streams of EVO 2012 (world fighting game championships - probably one of the genres to be covered by the kickstarter project in question), I would say that the M:F ratio was probably more than 100:1.
For the record, I label myself male, and so do all of my female friends who play games. We all refuse to use our voices during gameplay. It's not limited to gaming, either. We've all got male-sounding handles for a number of platforms/forums/etc.
Why? Not worth the shitstorm. I'll never really understand, I guess. Just can't empathize with the overwhelming need to harass, belittle, and attack people online just because of a single identifier. I'm glad I can't. I bet it feels really empty.
Do you have a source for this number that accounts for women who have labelled themselves 'M' in order to avoid harassment? It's common among my friends to do so, which goes back to Anita's original point on misogyny having effects in games.
I haven't seen a study which addresses how many women do this, nor a clear breakdown on how many of them do it because they've experienced harassment or are just worried about it because of second-hand stories.
I'm a guy. It's hard to find a woman in a game portrayed in a way that appeals to me. Or a guy, for that matter. What's with all the musclebound power fantasy tripe?
There is nothing wrong with calling out misogyny in media. Intense and reasonable criticism is part of every healthy society. You might have a point if she wanted to ban or censor games – but she does not.
Gamers and game developers don’t have a right to not be criticized.
Furthermore, games are a huge business and everyone is playing them. They are not some obscure thing that can be ignored. They are pretty central in our society, just ignoring them is not an option.
Like racist media before it, misogynist games will have to face the criticism.
If you mean take her serious or change their behaviour, then no, they don't have to. They don't even have to listen to her, for the same reason I don't listen to priests who tell me I go to hell for being a sinner.
If you mean they have to accept that she has the right to speak her mind, then yes, but so does does who disagree with her.
It is either freedom of speech or no freedom of speech.
There is nothing wrong with calling out misogyny in media.
There is also nothing wrong with people making fun of other people when they feel like it. It happens every day.
You might have a point if she wanted to ban or censor games – but she does not.
What was his point though? He said "I find the more extreme reactions and death threats disappointing and sad, but do not feel a lot of sympathy for such a person." Would you feel sympathy for someone who has studied poisonous snakes but then got hurt because they dove into a pile of them?
Gamers and game developers don’t have a right to not be criticized.
Neither does this woman.
Furthermore, games are a huge business and everyone is playing them. They are not some obscure thing that can be ignored. They are pretty central in our society, just ignoring them is not an option. Like racist media before it, misogynist games will have to face the criticism.
So what? You can't get away from Football, Baseball or Hockey either (well, maybe Hockey :) ... Plenty of women are into sports and don't have a big problem with the fact that all the players are men. They also don't have a problem with all of the misogynistic men who follow sports.
The problem that will never be solved is that someone will always get offended at something and I'd rather see people thicken up in order to deal with that instead of crying foul.
> There is also nothing wrong with people making fun of other people when they feel like it. It happens every day.
This incident went way beyond humor and ribbing, although I guess you find death threats and stalking hilarious.
> Neither does this woman.
There is a big difference for having some criticism about someone's points of view and engaging in a harassment campaign. That you equate the two is troubling.
> Plenty of women are into sports and don't have a big problem with the fact that all the players are men. They also don't have a problem with all of the misogynistic men who follow sports.
Women in sports is a huge issue and still is. There are also quite a lot of people who are troubled by the misogyny that permeates professional sports. Saying that these people don't exist just because you aren't paying attention is ridiculous.
> The problem that will never be solved is that someone will always get offended at something and I'd rather see people thicken up in order to deal with that instead of crying foul.
The best way to guarantee sexism is never addressed is to not talk about it. The Kickstarter project was about an examination of an issue, not a world-wide solution. That you make it about that is an attempt to move the goal posts.
This incident went way beyond humor and ribbing...
Actually, yes...death threats and stalking can be hilarious. It's completely subjective.
There is a big difference for having some criticism about someone's points of view and engaging in a harassment campaign. That you equate the two is troubling.
Once again...what one person calls harassment, another calls humor. Do you think the Internet should be patrolled by humor police?
Women in sports is a huge issue and still is. There are also quite a lot of people who are troubled by the misogyny that permeates professional sports.
Maybe it's an issue for you. Not for me or anyone else that I know. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I heard someone complained about that.
Furthermore, look in any direction...you can find people who are troubled by all sorts of things. Should everybody care about every single thing that a given group of people are troubled by? Should those troubled people be sheltered from humor if it offends them? Do you really, really want someone to police the internet or would you prefer freedom?
The best way to guarantee sexism is never addressed is to not talk about it. The Kickstarter project was about an examination of an issue, not a world-wide solution. That you make it about that is an attempt to move the goal posts.
I don't care about some Kickstarter project. I'm here to say that I like freedom of expression and I don't like it when people start saying there's some sort of big problem because someone else said some words that they got offended by. Boohoo! Death threats make me chuckle.
Ahem, who is talking about policing the internet? Making YouTube videos or blog posts about something you are critical of is not policing. It’s normal and healthy and if anything should be encouraged.
It is, in fact, what freedom of expression is all about. If you receive tons of awful threats and harassment you should be able to loudly talk about that and even describe it as a big problem. Because it is.
Misogyny in sports is also a problem that has to be called out. Why do you assume that it isn’t?
Sports are at least a bit more progressive in this respect that video games, though.
Also, the thing is that some of society’s behavior warrant change. That was and is the case with racism. That was and is the case with misogyny. Changing things means calling them out and protesting against them. Even if you might be able to ignore some of it instead if you really wanted to.
Your assumption is that misogyny in video games is as valid a viewpoint as being against that. That’s your judgement to make but don’t wonder when people say you are wrong.
I was convinced to become an atheist by people calling out other people. I was convinced to become a feminist by people calling out other people.
I know it’s an anecdote. I know from communication research that changes in opinion don’t really happen all that often in the real world, especially not in response to the media. But in the end I can say that I was personally changed by people calling out things.
I think it’s a valuable thing to do. The world would be a very sad place if it were impossible to change people with argument.
