Tourism definitely wasn't a major drag on the techno scene. There's always been the tourist clubs and the clubs that were more underground. Berliners usually don't go to Berlin's best known clubs. (Who the hell goes to Watergate or Tresor? Old joke was that Tresor was the biggest club in Dresden.)
I think the biggest drag is actually rent prices. When I got to Berlin 20 years ago you could get a room in a shared flat for €100. That same room now would be €500. Same for music spaces: it was easy to rent unused warehouse space in the inner city 20 year ago. There are a lot of interesting things that happen to a city when rent is ridiculously low as it was in Berlin for a long time (there were more apartments than people).
There's still a lot going on in Berlin, but the character has very much changed. 20 years ago it was rare for clubs to be legal. Most of Berlin's well known clubs now started off as illegal clubs back then. But there were hundreds of other spaces that didn't survive and transition to being legal spaces. There's still some of that, but much, much less. Also back then just randomly setting up a sound system in a park in the summer was much more tolerated. "Open Airs" in Berlin were just kind of what you did in the summer.
Honestly, while I generally did not partake in such, the pandemic was the first time that I realized that came back some. Partying was illegal and the parties were moderately guarded secrets. I hadn't seen that much buzz around illegal parties in more than a decade.
Addendum: As a weird note, I don't even get the grandparent's comment about Potsdam? For the non-Berlin folks, it's a city just outside of Berlin's borders, but an hour away on the train from the more alternative bits of the city. It's neither known for its music scene, nor honestly as a place that rich people want to move. I know a couple of people that have moved there because of usual suburb reasons: they wanted a bigger place, and it's cheaper there. The other cities listed there are also weird. I've been out in all of them but Lyon and, yeah, there's some stuff, but to say the "scene" is moving there is really off. Three of the cities listed there are in the Balkans, but the best city for techno in the Balkans is undoubtedly Belgrade.
You are absolutely right about rent. Its effect is not limited to techno - rent extraction is a damper on everything in the economy (except for rent extraction).
Imagine a guy comes around to your house every month and demands $1000 or else he breaks your kneecaps. You'd be quite motivated to ensure you can make that $1000 each month and you'd not be left with as much energy for doing everything else you might want to do. That's essentially the economic effect of rent. At least taxes are indexed to your income, so you can always afford to pay them; rent is not.
I moved to Berlin 15 years ago in my mid 20s. Back then we didn’t work very much, we constantly had hangovers, we were constantly out, running around Neukölln and Kreuzberg.
Whenever I chat to that age group now, while they often look the part, they’re actually tired, overworked, cash-strapped, and living far from the center of the city.
A good weird party scene needs that bad-judgment-high-enthusiasm energy of the young, and now there’s much less of it.
As someone who considers themselves somewhat principled, I would be somewhat more motivated to spend that month in exercise and martial arts training, to allow myself the opportunity to terminate this questionable attempt at a contractual relationship on the man's part. Replace acquiring 'physical fitness' with 'understanding of the minutiae of state and federal renting laws' though, and I think that would just about characterise my response to an obnoxious landlord, too...
I think your comment depicts the current & past situation in Berlin quite well. Overall, rents & overall cost of living in Berlin have increased tremendously, and available resources (unused warehouses, apartments, …) have gone down. It just can't be as underground and "poor but sexy" anymore if your DJs and ravers, during the day, all need to work high-paying 9-to-5 job to make ends meet.
Sooner or later, the Berlin scene will just feel like the one in Brooklyn. Everything will be properly gentrified.
> I think the biggest drag is actually rent prices
This is a super common cycle. City gets economically depressed -> rents drop a lot -> lots of young people and artists, etc. move in -> great "scene" develops -> people with a bit more money start moving in because of the scene -> rents rise -> young people and artists move elsewhere -> scene slows or stagnates.
Obviously that's an oversimplification, and just becoming cheap to live in isn't enough by itself, and just becoming more expensive isn't the death knell.
True, but I feel like in Berlin it was probably more drastic because, apart from gentrification, there was a huge wave of people moving in because of work (especially in tech), and more recently refugees.
Charlottenburg, Steglitz, Wilmersdorf or Wedding were never known for "the scene" but prices still got way higher. And places like Prenzlauer Berg were already gentrified when prices got even crazier.
I was trying to make a comparison to the €100 rooms from 20 years ago. That would be a single room in a 4-6 person shared flat. Those are still €500-ish. (In places just outside the ring like Treptow, Britz, Wedding, Lichtenberg.) In my shared two person flat back then I paid €300 (bills included). That room now would be way over €500.
Potsdam certainly is the place where the rich and famous live (Günter Jauch, Hasso Plattner just to name a few), they are shaping the city by donations and philanthropy to restore it’s historic glory.
Potsdam has almost exactly the same GDP per capita as Berlin (€45,378 vs. €45,074) and is ranked only 63rd highest GDP per capita of the 110 large-ish cities in Germany. I'm not convinced. ;-)
Genuine Q. Do berliner straight dislike any tourist no matter how they behave? I tend to go out in Buenos Aires where I live to more underground clubs and don't mind that there are a few tourists here and there. Im travelling to Berlin and was recommended Tresor, is it just a place for tourists?
Hate's not the right word. A lot of clubs have a community around them -- they have their regulars; people go there to see their friends. If there are too many tourists, there's less space for regulars. There are always some tourists, and that's fine, but a lot of those communities that I mentioned a second ago have been choked out by a club eventually being so popular with tourists that the regulars don't bother going anymore. The lines are too long, it's full too early, prices go up, etc. A lot of the well known clubs started off as underground spots that eventually were overrun. God, the last time I went to Renate, it was credit card only, didn't know a single person there who wasn't working there, even though we had guest list there was a 30 minute line at the coat check. That's what we don't like. ;-)
Also, often tourists aren't accustomed to Berlin's marathon club opening times (some clubs don't close on weekends) and end up too trashed and are annoying. So, yeah, tourists have a harder time at the doors.
Honestly, I've only been to Tresor once. It's kind of a misnomer since it's named after a very famous, very important long-closed club in a different part of Berlin with a totally different vibe. The current incarnation ... it's probably fine. Like, there are a handful of clubs in Berlin that actually feel a lot like the clubs Berliners do go to, but are mostly there for tourists. You can spot them because ... you can spot them. ;-) (Good rule of thumb in Berlin: if you can easily find the entrance, it's for tourists. Most of the more scene-y clubs don't have a sign.)
Many thanks for the info. When you say some clubs that now the lines are too long, etc. Berghain would be an example? Or is has kept its "undeground" scene?
I'm travelling there for the first time, as a woman alone I wouldn't like to have nasty looks tbh (or even be yelled at as other user suggested), not want to bother, know to behave and just want to get to know the city along with other places in Europe.
My understanding is that Tresor was destroyed and any current one with the same name isn't 'the' Tresor club. Berghain seems like it's the real successor there, and Berghain is not tourist accessible, it's about as easy to get in as Studio 54 in its heyday.
It's not about just line length, you would have to fit in and seem non-tourist to get into Berghain, and then you'd need to actually enjoy a dark, brutal, kink and techno club full of intentional degeneracy. I would absolutely go, for the music, but wouldn't be as much into the kink side, which I think is escalated somewhat from what Tresor was?
There's a good documentary on the history of Tresor: "Sub Berlin - The Story Of Tresor" which appears to even have a re-cut version on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiuJhq-z2LE
Berghain has quite a few regulars. I don't know so much what the mix there inside is anymore. I went a handful of times in its earlier years, and never really loved the place, but haven't been back since the last 2-3 times I waited in the line I didn't get in (which never happened before). There's kind of two poles in Berlin techno style and aesthetics kind of represented by Berghain and Kater / Bar 25, and I was always more in the Bar 25 camp. Berghain is very dark and industrial; Kater is more playful with lots of bright colors and odd objects. The music coming out of their labels is different in the same way.
I think the yelling at tourists is mainly going to be if you're doing something stupid (though some of those are non-obvious: e.g. taking pictures in clubs is mostly a no-no). I probably wouldn't mess with trying to get in to Berghain. Other places you'll have a decent shot. If you want to go like a pro, show up from 4-6 a.m. instead of midnight with the tourists. The pros come out late, and the lines are shorter and the dancefloors are less packed -- if you actually like to dance, later is better. I'll sometimes even go out on Sunday afternoon.
Dang... a Berlin native friend of mine took me to Renate around 2011-2012 ish. Great vibe but I got yelled at for being a tourist :(
I get it though, where I live we have desert undergrounds and parties up in the mountains with a vibe that is threatening to be overrun by tourists. To say nothing of all the plug-in camps popping up at Burning Man...
It's a fine line between having some foreigners/tourists which can be really interesting fellows with realities completely different from you aaaaand being overrun by people that behave like locusts and just care about consuming as cheaply and quickly as possible no matter what (what happened to us in Buenos Aires). I don't think most people mind some foreigners in the places they frequent, the problem is the excess.
Depends on the tourists - there's a lot of tourists that fit in the scene very easily, there's some that don't. It's not a requirement but if you already listen to the artists that are going to be playing you are in the first group. Tresor has pretty decent lineups while still being a bit more touristey but it's not a tourist trap or an ibiza-style club or anything like that. The crowd is generally considered a bit worse than the cool clubs, but nowhere near as bad as the actually uncool clubs (like say Watergate).
Tresor: As a tourist, could enter because I knew the DJs on the lineup and was wearing a black hoodie. Guy behind me with a fancy shirt got rejected subito, no questions asked.
> Do berliner straight dislike any tourist no matter how they behave?
I think, no citizen of any larger city likes tourists and the way tourism shapes the city. It's mostly ugly, tasteless entertainment venues and ever the same groups of people standing in your way, the same questions asked. Don't expect anyone to be enthusiastic about your week long expedition through their lived reality. Do your own research.
You have to behave like a "tourist" to be noticeable as one. If you are disgustingly drunk and obviously in "don't be gentle, it's a rental" mode, you may not get into some clubs, tourist or not. Some legendary clubs are very sex/kink positive, and/or queer spaces, bouncers take their job serious and filter out people who may disturb the peace or don't fit the general vibe. It's not a zoo. As a "tourist", or really anyone not in the scene, you likely won't get the info on anything "underground" going on.
That said, Berlin's tourism really isn't that bad compared to e.g. Paris or Prague. The city feels very much like actual people are living there. Speaking English won't get you "flagged" per se and you won't have trouble communicating. Mind you, the "expat" type isn't exactly liked either...
My advice, to get an authentic feel for Berlin: Explore the city by bike! Rent or cheaply buy one for the time being there. Traffic is intimidating, but the city is much, much less overwhelming and exhausting on a bike. (Don't clog the bike lanes, tho!) Berlin is incredibly green and got several lakes (!) inside and around, where you can swim and hang-out. It's also very explorable, meaning you can discover nice, or odd places and things just by walking around, in many areas. Don't get too focused on certain locations.
I live in Buenos Aires which became extremely attractive for expats, digital nomads and tourists in general last years due to the favorable exchange rate for first worlders. Considering this I started disliking _some_ tourists as you say. Those that go drunk everywhere, are loud, obnoxious, etc. I don't mind and are actually nice to those that are just chill and want to get to know the city.}
Thanks for the tips :) ! Will make sure to rent a bike while there.
The rent thing doesn’t exactly make sense to me because there are sometimes large underground scenes in expensive cities too. I have no idea how they coordinate warehouse parties in these places where the warehouse even for warehouse use would have a lot of value, but they do.
I think with the references to "promoters" a few times it's clear you're talking about a different metric than I am. Clubs in Tirana and Zagreb feel gltizier, more what one would expect from Balkan clubbing (which obviously exists in Belgrade too). Belgrade has some grittier clubs where both the decor and crowd feel like they're taking style cues from Berlin.
This sounds similar to what's happened in Oakland, CA. When I moved here 25 years ago there was a huge underground music and arts scene in West Oakland warehouses but the last 10 years of gentrification has wiped it out. After the pandemic (and constant right-wing propaganda) Oakland is now once again deemed a wasteland and businesses are fleeing, but I've started noticing a new youth culture is slowly starting to emerge here and there.
I've seen the pattern in several other places as well: arts thrive in the affordable undesirable edges of society until it generates enough buzz for capitalists to notice it and move in seeking to profit off of it. The problem is that culture is not valued in capitalism because it has no landlord.
The crackdown on all the spaces after the Ghostship fire basically obliterated it. Says something about the civic culture in the US that they chose to just wipe those spaces out instead of just making sure they were safe.
"making sure they were safe" What a weird thing to say. Places like Ghostship are built on not following the rules. You think they're going to follow the rules on fire safety? You want the authorities to spent their time and energy trying to enforce rules on a place who's raison d'etre is to be anti-authority? Sounds like a waste of everyone's time.
Why is that weird? The Ghostship was a nightmare firetrap that the code enforcement people knew about and did nothing. In a perfect world they'd have done their job and 36 people would still be a alive. In a less perfect world they'd be in prison.
Most of the places they shut down were mostly fine.
I think the biggest drag is actually rent prices. When I got to Berlin 20 years ago you could get a room in a shared flat for €100. That same room now would be €500. Same for music spaces: it was easy to rent unused warehouse space in the inner city 20 year ago. There are a lot of interesting things that happen to a city when rent is ridiculously low as it was in Berlin for a long time (there were more apartments than people).
There's still a lot going on in Berlin, but the character has very much changed. 20 years ago it was rare for clubs to be legal. Most of Berlin's well known clubs now started off as illegal clubs back then. But there were hundreds of other spaces that didn't survive and transition to being legal spaces. There's still some of that, but much, much less. Also back then just randomly setting up a sound system in a park in the summer was much more tolerated. "Open Airs" in Berlin were just kind of what you did in the summer.
Honestly, while I generally did not partake in such, the pandemic was the first time that I realized that came back some. Partying was illegal and the parties were moderately guarded secrets. I hadn't seen that much buzz around illegal parties in more than a decade.
Addendum: As a weird note, I don't even get the grandparent's comment about Potsdam? For the non-Berlin folks, it's a city just outside of Berlin's borders, but an hour away on the train from the more alternative bits of the city. It's neither known for its music scene, nor honestly as a place that rich people want to move. I know a couple of people that have moved there because of usual suburb reasons: they wanted a bigger place, and it's cheaper there. The other cities listed there are also weird. I've been out in all of them but Lyon and, yeah, there's some stuff, but to say the "scene" is moving there is really off. Three of the cities listed there are in the Balkans, but the best city for techno in the Balkans is undoubtedly Belgrade.