> two platforms that are still considerably different (ie. mobile phone and desktop/laptop) where having the same UX is actually a negative.

I disagree. I think most users want app foo to behave the same on their phone and their PC, even if that means not fitting in with the native platform conventions on one or both.

> Similarly if the developer shuts down the server or closes shop or drops dead the application is forever lost.

> Also installation in rarely an issue in most platforms - and macOS has the simplest among all.

Isn't it macOS that now prevents you from installing (native) applications from developers who have shut down, by requiring an up-to-date digital signature?

> in practice many web applications do not really "collaborate" with other web applications but instead just provide multiple sessions over the same application and all data is held hostage to them.

And in practice that's the most useful thing for person-to-person collaboration.

> I disagree. I think most users want app foo to behave the same on their phone and their PC, even if that means not fitting in with the native platform conventions on one or both.

I don't see how you'd disagree with that or why you think most user would want that.

> Isn't it macOS that now prevents you from installing (native) applications from developers who have shut down, by requiring an up-to-date digital signature?

Yes, macOS nowadays is awful on that front - even the linked article is exactly about that.

> And in practice that's the most useful thing for person-to-person collaboration.

Right but that is a different type of collaboration and doesn't need a web app for it. I do not remember the name, but i remember a P2P text editor from a decade before Google introduced Google Docs - and i'm sure Emacs has a mode for that too (actually i just checked and there are more than one modes for that).

> I don't see how you'd disagree with that or why you think most user would want that.

IME most regular users are application-oriented rather than operating-system-oriented; they're not "using iOS", they're "using WhatsApp" (or whatever). Frankly I think they're right; the operating system is meant to be the platform that supports the applications, not something that puts the attention on itself.

> Right but that is a different type of collaboration and doesn't need a web app for it. I do not remember the name, but i remember a P2P text editor from a decade before Google introduced Google Docs - and i'm sure Emacs has a mode for that too (actually i just checked and there are more than one modes for that).

It's possible with enough effort, sure, but you'd have to manually reimplement a lot of what the web gives you by default. In practice with limited development time, this kind of collaboration is much more commonly available in web apps than in native apps.

I hate to cherry-pick, but the comment on cross-platformness being a developer issue isn't always the case. I use Linux for everything, and an app being cross-platform increases the likelihood that I can use it.

Windows and Mac users are typically catered for.

You can be right as much as you want, but the majority of users do not care.

Native apps are better in so many ways, and users continue to not care. And that’s what apple is just ignoring. That’s what users like you are missing.

That is because "the majority" of users are very often not in a position to be able to judge why they should care nor even know what they are missing. E.g. if all one uses on their brand new Mac is Electron or other lowest-common-denominator apps and web apps and they never take advantage of something like Services then they wont even know what that menu is about - and these applications wont even teach them about it.

At that point the Mac becomes just an expensive, sleek looking device running an OS with a fancy theme that you but might as well replace with a similar looking fancy device running Windows or GNOME - there is no real reason to use it beyond being fashionable or as a status symbol akin to some clothing and accessory brands.

Strangely enough there’s still enough native to the platform that even the best notebook that can run Electron is still actually a compelling advantage because I would still have Spotlight, I would still have Quick Look, I would still have a POSIX environment, I would still have Exposé, I would still have the ability to globally reassign menu hot keys, I would still have the best PDF handling on any desktop environment I’ve ever used, I would still have Safari, I would still have Time Machine, I would still have Look Up, and I would still have Live Text. Loathe that I am to admit it, even the Finder ain’t half bad compared to the nonsense out there I could be using instead and I’ve made my peace with its deficiencies.

I wouldn’t be happy without the excellent suite of native 3rd party software and I’m not happy about 1Password’s decision to go from native to Electron, but the core Macintosh operating system features are still a compelling package.

> Strangely enough there’s still enough native to the platform that even the best notebook that can run Electron is still actually a compelling advantage because I would still have Spotlight

You can't use Spotlight to find a channel in Slack

> I would still have Quick Look

You can't Quick Look a Google Docs document

> I would still have a POSIX environment

You can't `grep` any of your Google Keep notes

> I would still have Exposé

Not really useful if all your "apps" are really browser tabs

> I would still have Time Machine

Can you back up your Figma designs in Time Machine?

Are we just assuming that everything I didn’t list is also just magically gone? I wasn’t.

Or to clarify, my list was mostly (but not entirely) a unique combination of things that distinguish the Macintosh. I can run Emacs anywhere, and every platform more or less has a set of PIM applications like the ones that come preinstalled on Mac OS X, but there’s a core set of features that makes my experience doing stuff I could in theory be doing on other platforms better.

> Are we just assuming that everything I didn’t list is also just magically gone? I wasn’t.

I'm not GP, but, well, I guess I'd be curious to hear what else you think is relevant, because this is generally along the lines of my thinking on the matter too. The features which make macOS special become increasingly less relevant as apps move away from the traditional macOS paradigm.

It's a spectrum, to be sure—Exposé is still useful even if all of my windows are Electron apps (although, not if they're browser tabs). But if I'm actually just working in Chrome all day, I really can do that on any machine and have the same (IMO, lesser) experience.

> I'm not GP, but, well, I guess I'd be curious to hear what else you think is relevant

I mean, presently, pretty much anything on a fresh install of a Mac in /Applications or /Applications/Utilities. The Catalyst crap aside that honestly may as well be Electron apps, Apple still has very good application software, most of which I’ve never felt compelled to replace and wouldn’t just magically disappear just because 3rd parties choose Electron. OmniGroup, Panic, Flying Meat, SmileOnMyMac and Bare Bones are still making excellent software that I use every day, and I have no indications that any of them are thinking Electron might be in their future.

Personally I still avoid Electron as much as possible, but when 1Password 8 hits, well, I’m not replacing it with something else unless it actually is somehow terrible. Agile Bits has made excellent Mac software for 15 years in Cocoa, if they went this route, I’m willing to chance it.

My real concern is that there’s no fresh blood developing new and interesting native apps. In the last 5 years, there has been IINA which replaced QuickTime 7 for me, Retrobatch from Flying Meat and I’ve been keeping an eye on nvUltra (a kind of expansion or rethinking or something of Notational Velocity) for a couple of years but it still hasn’t been released. Flying Meat is also basically just one guy and his wife who has a day job, so what happens to Acorn and Retrobatch when he retires?

My other concern is that a lot of the people at Apple that knew how to write good Mac software seem to have already retired, so I’m not holding out for good new and interesting app software on that front.

If there’s a future that’s mostly Electron for me, it’s probably from what I have atrophying and decaying with only Electron-based replacements.

Woah woah woah. You’re saying that the majority of computer users treat their OS as a tool to run the software they care about and let the platform get out of the way and you’re looking down on them? That’s literally all an OS is for. Everything else is fangirling.

Macs are a computer with excellent build quality, great battery life, and let users do the things they want without fiddling plenty fast. Like put on your end user hat, what else could you even ask for?

There’s zero self-awareness why someone might choose to buy a computer that isn’t a spec sheet with the biggest numbers shoved into the cheapest injection mold plastic money can buy. Like we’re nerds — we’re the equivalent of people who drive stripped down street racing cars with all aftermarket parts and the metal struts exposed saying “haha look at those idiots buying Honda Civics, must be for the badge.”

> Woah woah woah. You’re saying that the majority of computer users treat their OS as a tool to run the software they care about and let the platform get out of the way and you’re looking down on them? That’s literally all an OS is for. Everything else is fangirling.

No.

I'm saying that the software doesn't take full advantage of the tool people have bought, -to use a similarly bad analogy- like forcing them to use their motorized screwdriver without using the motor by instead by twisting it around like a classic hand operated one because that is the approach that works on all screwdrivers.

I know where you're coming from but I take a less pessimistic view, people are still making really great, first class apps for the Mac and will continue to do so as long as Apple provides a development environment for the platform. Craft and Raycast are two big examples that come to mind but the indie Mac and iOS developer community is alive and strong and generally positive about the future.

This line of argument sounds like a petition-gatherer trying to get signatures for a niche local issue and getting frustrated that they can't get enough people to see things their way.

It is an example because i think a lot of people on Hacker News know about macOS and its advanced features that you wouldn't expect most people to know about.

Personally i do not even really use macOS myself anymore as a main OS since around 2011 and the last Mac i bought was in 2012 (a Mac Mini that i gave away to my mother a few years ago so the only Mac i have around is a 2009 iMac - and whatever is the last version of macOS that runs on it).

I could use OLE and COM automation on Windows as a different example, though i'm not sure if even Microsoft cares about those anymore despite allowing for things you can't get in lowest-common-denominator multiplatform applications.