> No. Speak for yourself. You simply and repeatedly omit the part about the moral dimension, and fighting against injustice, a person or nation becoming the enemy just because of what they did to others.
I've been on the other side of this sloganeering. I'd say I'm a relatively patriotic American. I recently went to Europe and talked with a lot of very liberal Europeans, and they asked me precisely the same questions. To them, America had long ago become the enemy just because of what they did to others. They put kids in cages. They flagrantly violate international law. Their healthcare and police systems kill their own citizens just for the sadistic fancy of others. How could I live in such a terrible country, they asked me, and not spend every moment trying to leave or overthrow its government? Didn't I know that America had no respect for human rights?
The problem was that their favored news sources were incredibly biased, reporting nothing but the worst events happening in America, and ascribing the worst possible motivations to all Americans. They had literally heard about nothing good happening in my country in years.
That's the kind of distortion you get if you listen to stories for only one side. In that kind of bubble, you can be convinced that any group is morally reprehensible. That's why so many people enthusiastically signed up for the Nazi party so many decades ago. That's why I met Europeans that think America is its successor.
If the narratives you hear are so one-sided that you can't ascribe any motivations to your enemies besides pure hatred, then you don't understand what is actually going on. Think about the number of news stories you have read that attempt to paint a group in a bad light. Divide this by the number that try to paint it in a good light. If this ratio is worse than 10:1, then you never actually made a moral choice -- your emotions were decided for you by editorial slant.
By talking about those people and the questions they asked, you can skip questions of mine, such as "Would you want to be put into a concentration camp just for the sadistic fancy of others? And if you were, would you say nobody should care about it?"
> That's why so many people enthusiastically signed up for the Nazi party so many decades ago.
Is it also the reason people condemn them? Does some people you know not being aware of anything good about the US change the fact that the Iraq war was a war of aggression, for example? You seem to think no atrocities or crimes are real.
> If the narratives you hear are so one-sided that you can't ascribe any motivations to your enemies besides pure hatred
Keyword being "if". And if that's not the case at all, but claimed, then that's you talking about a straw man, and who you met, completely ignoring what I said and asked. For all I know, you treated those people the same way, so until I talk with them, I won't take your word for what their positions are, either. I asked you to speak for yourself, you did anything but that.
> your emotions were decided for you by editorial slant.
No, they aren't, and more importantly, you don't get to tell me they just because it would fit your narrative.
I think what you describe is a very interesting experience.
I'm not an American, but I lived there for many years as a young adult, and I now live in Australia.
One thing both our countries have in common is that we both lock children in cages - refugee children - and we pay private contractors to do it in out of the way places - and extraordinary lengths are taken to avoid public oversight.
Terrible things happen in both countries, and overseas on behalf of both countries.
Currently a prominent former Australian solider appears to be under investigation for kicking civilians of a cliff (to their death) in Afghanistan because it was inconvenient to keep them prisoner. I say _appears_ because there is a lot of secrecy around the case.
Being challenged on the the ugliest truths about our nation or group is difficult, and it is rarely done in a way that is an example of elevated standard of generous and noble behaviour the speaker suggests we should be held to - If there is a European country that is an example unbroken principled dignified conduct I would be delighted to learn of it's existence.
That said, the anger at the hypocrisy of the person challenging us, is probably best separated from the shame we feel at the truth about the darkest sides of our nations.
Everything that is good and true about the United States and Australia as immigrant nations that allowed people fleeing poverty and war a new and better life, is not invalidated by, nor does it invalidate the reality that both nations were built on a genocide of the original inhabitants, that slavery and oppression were used to build the foundation of the wealth we now enjoy.
I think we are a better kind of patriot, when we see the horrors of our own countries and do no look away or excuse them, and we are even better when we work to fix the parts of our nations that are broken.
I've always felt the phrase 'my country, right or wrong', is a more noble statement if is taken to mean I take responsibility 'right or wrong' rather than the double speak interpretation of "right even when it's wrong".
If you are anything like me, then probably both of us are guilty of not being patriotic enough, of enjoying the privileges and wealth our nations provide and taking too little responsibility for helping steer its course.
I've been on the other side of this sloganeering. I'd say I'm a relatively patriotic American. I recently went to Europe and talked with a lot of very liberal Europeans, and they asked me precisely the same questions. To them, America had long ago become the enemy just because of what they did to others. They put kids in cages. They flagrantly violate international law. Their healthcare and police systems kill their own citizens just for the sadistic fancy of others. How could I live in such a terrible country, they asked me, and not spend every moment trying to leave or overthrow its government? Didn't I know that America had no respect for human rights?
The problem was that their favored news sources were incredibly biased, reporting nothing but the worst events happening in America, and ascribing the worst possible motivations to all Americans. They had literally heard about nothing good happening in my country in years.
That's the kind of distortion you get if you listen to stories for only one side. In that kind of bubble, you can be convinced that any group is morally reprehensible. That's why so many people enthusiastically signed up for the Nazi party so many decades ago. That's why I met Europeans that think America is its successor.
If the narratives you hear are so one-sided that you can't ascribe any motivations to your enemies besides pure hatred, then you don't understand what is actually going on. Think about the number of news stories you have read that attempt to paint a group in a bad light. Divide this by the number that try to paint it in a good light. If this ratio is worse than 10:1, then you never actually made a moral choice -- your emotions were decided for you by editorial slant.