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The US constitution specifically calls out treaties signed by the US (such as the UN Charta) as supreme law of the land. Article VI, the "Supremacy Clause".

Thus, US law, too, defers to international law.

Please at least read the legal framework you're so confidently misdescribing.


It isn't obeyed or enforced and, therefore, is not the law. I won't read it as there is no point in doing so because it is not the law.

By that incredibly circular definition, laws don't exist. All it takes is ignoring them and then they disappear!

That's obviously not how things work. If you don't obey the law, you are a criminal. That's the whole point of laws.


A law defines the nature of collective action in response to certain violations. Words on paper themselves are impotent. If there is no potential for enforcement, i.e. there is no counterfactual state of collective action, there is no law.

That's exactly correct. Laws are not a physical entity and therefore their existence is predicated entirely on collective agreement.

So if you and I agree laws don't matter, we can go rob a bank together and it's all good?

If you and I, the president, congress, and the judiciary agree, then yes, and that's kind of the situation regarding the laws around starting a war.

Why only these local institutions? What makes those special?

They have the power to enforce laws

So do the mall cop and the ICC. Why does this arbitrary level in-between matter?

The mall cop much more so than the ICC

That sure is an attitude that explains why US soft power (and with that, Empire) has been crumbling at an unprecedented rate.

You might not care about the rules, but the rest of the world takes notice. This is how you break a world order carefully designed to further your own interests.


It's absolutely insane they're thinking of bailing out the US given the context of this thread.

The president of the US does not have the power to start a war without getting it approved by the UN security council. You're arguing internal implementation details, but the legality is not determined by your courts.

I care less about what the UN says is legal than I do the local traffic cop

International law is not about what you care about. It just is. If you break it by starting a war, then it is an illegal war, ad definitionem.

France has a nuclear deterrent it has stated has "a European dimension".

Don't go around poking hornets nests if you don't want to get stung.


You think there's a game theory scenario in the book where France launches a nuclear weapon at mainland USA over a land dispute between them and Denmark?

France has the only first strike nuclear doctrine in the world, with the specific policy of shooting nukes to "protect it's vital interests", a term Macron has recently clarified "has a European dimension".

Make of that what you will, but if I were you I wouldn't go around poking the hornets nest that has an explicit sign "these hornets will sting" attached to it.


How is Greenland a vital interest to France? Especially in the context of initiating a nuclear war with a friendly nation?

Europe is of vital interest to France, as is not letting American imperialists touch it.

A nation that invades us is not friendly.


Should I give you a pass for only pulling a ten from my wallet when you mug me? Or do I defend myself knowing that next time you'll be taking more?

NATO dictates that an attack on any NATO nation should be seen as an attack on every nation, so yeah.

Would you like to find out?

See, this is what is so dumb about this: you are treating this as if it is some kind of board game. It is exactly why the US gets into these messes over and over again, the incredible overconfidence that because they somehow have battlefield superiority they can do whatever they want. You are exemplifying precisely where the rot in the USA is located.


I take it you didn't read the source?

> As a source puts it, the French said: "Would you like more soldiers? You could have them. Would you like more naval support? You could have that. Would you like more air support? You could have that too."


I did, but it simply wouldn't have happened. Whatever about boots on the ground and ships deployed, they would not have fired a shot. There is zero appetite for war with the US.

Europe can wreck the US in 15 minutes and not a shot would be fired. That would have massive effect on the EU too and that's one of the things holding that back. But if the US would invade Canada or Denmark I'm fairly sure that they would not hesitate, especially not if half the USA would be on their side in the decision.

Europe is not a megalith, there is no central authority to make any kind of decision, and no Government in the bloc has a mandate to destroy it's citizens quality of life and economy by engaging in armed conflict with the US.

This includes Denmark, who would not have fought the US, as much as they tried to put on a show.


Which part of 'and not a shot would be fired' is so hard to understand. There are so many ways to tell another party that maybe they should tend their own house for a bit.

Are you talking about economic warfare? Too many EU nations are completely dependent on the US economically and it only takes one veto.

The reality would be lots of denunciations, some token measures, followed by Business As Usual. Ireland, Poland, Germany, Spain aren't sacrificing their entire economies for Greenland.


Speaking as an Irish citizen id be ok with messing up the US at the cost of our economy. I think that you underestimate the resolve of Europeans on this.

It's profoundly depressing, but such is the world we live in now.


I think you're thoroughly misreading the state of affairs here in Europe.

GP is in Europe afaik. Which makes some of their comments that much more strange.

And I'm a former soldier and current defence advisor. I suspect you'd be horrified of the realpolitik within the EU today.

I know who you are, no worries.

As for the realpolitik within the EU, I'm close enough to the fire that I can see the slow changing trends and I have some hope that once Orban is dealt with we'll see some serious improvements in how the EU is conducting day-to-day business in times of crisis. We simply were unprepared for countries backsliding due to out-of-EU influence. But that cat is out of the bag and now we need to deal with it without alienating the rest of the Hungarian population.


So is the idea that the US would start bombing Iran without a plan, goal, or any thought to the consequences, yet here we are...

Iran has been in a war with the USA since at least 1979. I was about to say "soft war" but that would be ignoring all the deaths.

This is one battle of many and the USA will win it. Whether it is warranted or whether the USA will win 'the war' is another thing.


There is a difference, basically the entire world hates the Iranian regime and wants them gone, USA bombing the Iranian regime wont get that much pushback from the world even if the war was started in an underhanded way.

It is entirely different if USA starts attacking NATO allies such as Denmark which isn't a threat or problem to anyone, that is not something anybody would expect and it would ruin American diplomacy completely.


Does US care about diplomacy anymore ?

Yeah, otherwise why would Trump only attack hated countries? He would have already started bombing Canada since its the closest.

2028 is very, very far away.

> As a source puts it, the French said: "Would you like more soldiers? You could have them. Would you like more naval support? You could have that. Would you like more air support? You could have that too."

Thank God for the French. I long thought their strong Gaullist stance on sovereignty was a bit silly in today's world, but turns out they were right along.

Europe can't trust any outside powers. Any external dependency can and will be used against us. We used to be wide-eyed believers in international corporation and global alliances, but those are, as it turns out, always a risk and a liability.

I sure as hell am glad the French kept being stubborn enough to build most capabilities in-house, so now we have our own nuclear deterrent, aircraft carrier and fighter jet programs. Imagine if we had gone all-in on American weapons tech! They'd have us, excuse my French, by the balls!


> I long thought their strong Gaullist stance on sovereignty was a bit silly in today's world

There is very good reasons why De Gaulle was always a bit doubtful about American military protection and why post-war France put a strong emphasis on military sovereignty.

That has nothing to do with any French stubbornness or a so called French anti-American feeling.

The main reason is that De Gaulle experienced the fact American leadership can be untrustworthy first hand.

When he was the leader of the exiled French force during the 40s, Churchill supported him.

Meaningwhile Roosevelt refused to give him any support and actively acted to make him replaced by a puppet, General Giraud. Mainly because it was better aligned with American interests to setup a puppet state in France on the longer term.

The situation changed only later when it became pretty obvious that Giraud was antisemite, an openly nazi collaborationist and a pretty poor politician.

Only then, America started to support De Gaulle officially. Initially only indirectly through the relation between De Gaulle and Eisenhower.


You can always trust americans to do the right thing after we have tried everything else.

Never trust america unless our last option is the one you want. Otherwise, let us stubbornly do it wrong until we come around.


I can't wait.

It was even more than that. In the late 1930s the US told France not to worry about those aggressive Germans next door, if things go pear-shaped we'll stand by you, you can rely on us to help defend you.

This is why France went with its own nuclear deterrent, among other things.


Ukraine gave up their nukes due to American assurances as to Ukraine's defence.

Not this talking point again...

I am very pro Ukraine, but those nukes where never "Ukranian", they where Soviet nukes, staffed and manned and made by Russia.

This is like if USA puts nukes in Sweden under NATO, are they suddenly Swedish nukes? No.


Nah, this is like if the US puts nuke in California and the US falls apart.

Are they Californian nukes or DC nukes? Possession is nine-tenths of the law...


As a Brit it’s been very obvious CdG was right since the start.

The final straw was almost 50 years ago when Thatcher gave up the UKs space program and satellite plans in favor of giving the money, in cash, to the US.

In return for paying for 1/3 of the keyhole satellite network Regan said we could borrow them when needed.

Then we asked to use them to look at the Falklands and Regan said no.

That was the same period where we traded British missile technology for renting D5s from America. So though we make and own our own nuclear warheads, the delivery systems are American and must be returned to the US for maintenance on a regular basis. Essentially robbing the UK of an independent deterrent.

I am all for unilateral nuclear disarmament but if we are going to have nukes in the current climate they should be entirely homegrown and independent.

The British support of the US military industrial complex doesn’t benefit the UK as it means we have no ability to act alone or in opposition to the US. We are as dependent on resupply as the Israelis.

Obviously that’s great for the US.


I can see you aren't french, nor know the culture, else you would have known that those were only words. false promise and pretending isn't seens as really bad in france. Words are just words. Foreign naive beliefs about our culture is realy cute.

>I long thought their strong Gaullist stance on sovereignty was a bit silly in today's world, but turns out they were right along.

Every single French president since Mitterand (with a brief exception for Iraq that was more than made up by Libya) spent a large part of their time liquidating Gaullism.


The French took basically the exact opposite approach to the British in terms of post-WW2 foreign policy.

I think partly because of the shared language British elites were able to convince themselves that the US is just like us, and the so called "special relationship" sort of preserved British power albeit as an extremely junior partner riding on the coattails of the US.

With the French there was no such delusion and they've never seen eye to eye with the Americans, they've just been biding their time waiting for this all to play out.

In hindsight, the French were right of course (they usually are as much as it pains me to say it)


All this is very funny if you take into account how the United States originated.

What's going on right now makes a lot more sense when you consider that what's now the US was populated not so much by people of English descent, but specifically super religious Protestants who were often causing trouble.

Part of the solution to Europe's wars of religion was to pack off some of the most swivel-eyed ones to the new world to let them build their New Jerusalem there, and it worked for a bit


> I long thought their strong Gaullist stance on sovereignty was a bit silly in today's world, but turns out they were right along.

Silly ? it originally comes from the american trying to impose a governement to france / print money and administrate it right after WW2. The ONLY reasons this didn't happen is because De Gaulle marched to paris and became the de facto ruler of the nation after that from his popularity, other wise the american plan would have happened.

US has literally had the SAME policy since maybe as early as the 1800 : expand the empire and get as much as influence as possible. They were never exactly friends or at least "kind" friends.

If anything the subsequent presidents who meshed our defense / intelligence / technical appartus so deeply with the US were complete fools, at best.


I'm not sure you understood my point. I used to think it was silly, but now I agree with your view.

> Thank God for the French

France has nowhere the military power to resist a country like the US. They have not invested in the military for a very long time and most of their equipment is completely outdated.


Ah but alas: have you considered that the US is increasingly run by actual idiots?

It turns out even Iran has the power to resist a country like the US.


America below the President and his appointees is an unbelievable dream team. That's why the whole machine works, regardless of who is at the top.

I agree in principle but actually much of this system has been gutted in horrific and hard-to-reverse ways.

For now, but it's working less and less well as the rot spreads.

Iran is no joke. Everybody knew it and yet they went full ahead with it for some reason.

It's more that "military power" per se is not the be-all-end-all of conflict.

USA has not gone full force into Iran.

Need you be reminded of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War

What has happened to this site? Its all these leftie pro MENA talking points.

You can disagree with the tone on the user above but the fact is NOBODY can stand up to USA military.

t. Swede


France has completely sovereign nukes and the only first-strike nuclear doctrine in the world. It has the military power to resist any country.

France's nuclear policy isn't unique in that they are willing to launch a first-strike (all the serious nuclear powers claim to be). France's nuclear policy is unique in that they are willing to use nuclear fire as a warning shot: before they launch their full strategic stockpile, they'll (probably) erase a military base or aircraft carrier with a tactical nuke. That lower threshold to break the nuclear taboo is what's interesting.

It's not the only country with that doctrine. See [1]. I think only China and India is no first use.

[1]: https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/nuclear-declaratory-p...


Yup. No other country had an official Force de Frappe.

France is never going to send a nuke to the US.


So explain yourself instead of using memes.

They already nuked America economically twice in the 20th century.

The first time the French involvement in gold markets caused the Great Depression and the second time the repatriation of gold caused a financial system crisis which severely damaged the dollar and forced the US to decouple the dollar from gold entirely.


Nuke means no return and MAD. Not a word you use lightly.

It happened in the Simpsons.

You don't need a lot of nuclear weapons to be able to say "Fuck off, or everyone dies". You just need enough, and the widespread belief that you'd actually use them.

France probably has enough, and is definitely credible in their willingness to use them.


After the failure against countries with no military might like Vietnam, Irak, Afghanistan, and now Iran, I wouldn’t place a lot of importance into how much tech and quantity in the military plays a critical role into winning wars today.

Maybe not but they have enough to be useful. They do have nukes - a US invasion of France would not be a good idea. On the more realistic end of things the French are able to provide military intelligence to Ukraine to counter the US president turning it off to help his mate Vlad.

History shows that Europe can't trust any inside powers either...

pre-EU history shows that, which is why we founded the EU in the first place.

To quote one of our founding fathers, Robert Schuman, the point of tightly interweaving our economies this way is to "make war not only unthinkable, but materially impossible"


Sounds kinda like why they founded the League of Nations

Sure, but it's not like the actors currently able to pass the entry hurdle are not malicious.

Maybe we (or somebody in, say Ukraine or Rojava) will need this to defend themselves from the actors having access to missiles right now.


Funnily enough, it did end up as the next NFTs, just not in the way they hoped

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