Canada has open arms but Québec has closed its doors. This is not a deterrent for skilled immigrants as they can immigrate elsewhere in Canada which follows Express Entry system.
Québec is not really a destination for skilled immigrants anyway because its immigration system is bloated and delayed. It takes 4 years to immigrate to Québec while 6 months elsewhere in Canada. Probably the CAQ government is adhering to its voter base by this.
I would love to hear an argument about why this is necessarily a bad or negative thing that they have strict controls over their immigration? Japan acts similarly and is none the worse for it.
The Quebec independence movement is still alive and strong even if it isn't so overt, and I think there is nothing wrong with that. If they want to maintain as much autonomy as they are able to, with their limited set of options, that is great.
Not surprising at all. Canada had "money for citizenship scheme" and these are the side effects. Québec has and is still playing a major role in this scheme with their provincial scheme called QIIP. Once the rich "investor" gets a permanent residence through QIIP, they move to BC for the better climate. Some QIIP PR holders has never even set foot in Québec according to the immigration dept of Québec . Condos in downtown Montreal are paid for in cash by foreign students who drive expensive cars.
I thought to myself, "that can't be right". And no, it seems like it's actually crazier[1], but see caveats[2]. You need $1.3M (USD) in minimum net worth:
> In order to be admitted into the Quebec Investor Program 2018, foreign investors must have a legally obtained minimum net worth of CAD $1.6 million (or its equivalent in a foreign currency), either individually or combined with their spouse or partner. Assets that may be included when calculating net worth include real estate, bank accounts, stocks and bonds, as well as pension funds. Under the Quebec program for investors, inherited assets are classified as legally obtained, however, donation or inheritance money must have been received at least six months prior to launching a QIIP application. As of January 2018, $1.6 million Canadian dollars is equivalent to approximately USD 1.3 million,
So, wait, what about the loan then? You only need $800k CAD (~$600k USD):
> Applicants for Canada investor immigration must sign an agreement stating their intention to make a government guaranteed CAD $800,000 investment in Quebec through a financial intermediary authorized to participate in the QIIP. This prescribed investment in a five-year term note is fully and unconditionally guaranteed by the Government of Quebec, and in accordance with the provisions of the program, the money is returned in full after five years with 0% interest.
But wait, maybe you don't want to have to sell all your assets to make that loan to Canada? What if someone else with money to spare could give Canada the money on your behalf? I mean, it's clear you can pay, right (since you're a millionaire), and the loan is guaranteed by the Canadian government. The only thing that would be missing is the interest one would make on the loan normally, so, what if…
> Over the last decade, a significant percentage of the Quebec and Canada Immigrant Investor Program participants have financed their investment in the country. Investors who do not wish to liquidate assets in order to come up with the required C$800,000 can finance the investment through an authorized Canadian financial intermediary for a one-time loan payment of ~$220,000 CAD, which includes all interest and fees. This means that as of January 2018, the "true cost" of obtaining a Canada investor visa is only around 175,000 American dollars,
Now, there are a few more gotchas (you have to intend to settle in Quebec, you must "have acquired at least two years of full-time business management experience in the past five years", …).
[2]: http://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/immigrate-settle... seems like a more official site. They list the number as $2M CAD ($1.5M USD) in net worth and $1.2M CAD investment (~$900k USD). But it does seem to confirm "financing". So, the theory seems sound, but there's perhaps some haggling over price. /s … sorta.
According to the Canadian charter of mobility rights, once you are granted a permanent residency, you can live in any province of your choice. So this intend to settle in Québec doesn't hold. That's why many of them have never even set foot in Québec though they had to sign an agreement to settle in Québec.
Are there any additional benefits beyond residency that the QIIP grants, that could be reneged upon if you violate the intent of the contract?
Perhaps, could they say that if you stay in Quebec, your money is just a loan, but if you don’t, it’s a permanent payment—making the entry fee almost more of a “deposit” attached to a Letter of Intent?
Why are you shocked? Is it too high or too low in your estimation?
The US has a similar program (EB5). The investor invests $500k over some period of time and gets back the money. In practice they spend $50k-$100k on a green card plus the opportunity cost of the $500k.
the EB5 investment isn't backed by the government though, so a lot riskier than the loan for Quebec investor visa. Additionally, as the parent comment mentioned, one could finance the investment and therefore really only pay ~175k out of pocket.
Yes, it's not easy to say goodbye to 1.2 million for 5 years. The outrage over it seems racially motivated to me. It's not like white millionaires haven't bought their way into the country before this.
Check out this article on Malta doing a pay-for-EU citizenship scheme:
"Critics charge that the program undermines the concept of European citizenship, potentially poses security risks and provides a possible backdoor for Russians seeking to escape sanctions against their own country."
From personal observation: Benefits are tangible and immediate to the city and its politicians from increased taxes and whatever bribes are paid, downsides are intangible and long-term to the city residents who get priced out of their homes, lose business because these "residents" don't actually live in the city, and have to live with sometimes-unpleasant citizenship tourists that are often involved in fraud of one sort or another.
Had a friend who did this and then moved to BC. My friend lived in Quebec for most of his childhood but left during teenage years. Not sure about this stereotype about "rich foreign students driving expensive cars", because I think that is only some and not all, but people only notice the few people with rich cars. It's a free world, who cares about rich students buying expensive cars.
What I think people don't understand is that only the rich and intelligent come in through this way. You need at least $1M in the bank to even be considered.
It doesn't. No intelligence or English/French language tests needed for QIIP.
Canada (except Québec) has a merit based immigration system called Express Entry for skilled individuals.
Québec's called Québec skilled worker programme. Despite its name, Quebec's system is not based on merit but first come first serve, paper based, slow (4+ years) and unpredictable.
Because Québec has full autonomy in cherry picking its immigrants, the QIIP money for citizenship scheme is alive and kicking. The federal govt. cannot do anything to stop this according to the Canada Québec Accord.
Re: Number 2: This is a common pattern in all big American companies. Hire an H1B, make the employee an indentured slave forever. H1B employées born in India and China have to wait 10+ years for a green card to break free from indentured servitude. While you can switch jobs on an H1B, it's risky and if it screws up, your queue position gets reset.
Canada too have similar system called LMIA based Temporary closed work permit for skilled professionals. But the employee's permanent residency is not at the mercy of the employer in this case and it's fast too, in some cases within 4 months !
This is true, I left my previous company because they said I had to wait 1 year to apply for my green card. According to the HR lady this was the policy (there was no policy) and it was always better from an immigration point of view to wait more. Of course this is all bullshit. This was just a dirty strategy to keep people one extra year.
> Canada too have similar system called LMIA based Temporary closed work permit for skilled professionals. But the employee's permanent residency is not at the mercy of the employer in this case and it's fast too, in some cases within 4 months !
I have some experience with how LMIA is not perfect, but I was excited when the administration was openly considering copying it ~18 months ago, because it's hard to imagine anything between H1B and LMIA which is worse than H1B (whether from the perspective of a protectionist, a progressive, or a common liberal).
LMIA seems like a balance. In LMIA, the employer is made to test the local labour market before applying for a visa, rather than an LCA in which the USCIS trusts the employer's word.
The LCA process also forces the employer to test the labor market first. It's all theater, and based on 20 year-old business practices (you have to publish your job ad in a major newspaper and some other places, of which one option is to have it be read out loud by a local radio station!), but it's not like you can skip through that process. How does LMIA compare here?
However an lmia supported work permit it's the employee's and not employer's, meaning that if you get fired you can still stay in the country and find another job. You do need to apply for the Visa again for the next job but being in Canada already makes it much simpler. Essentially you aren't at your employer mercy.
Also if you work for one year you usually already have enough points for PR, once you apply for a pr you gain the right for a BOWP visa, which is essentially an open work permit that allows you to work for any employer until a final decision in your PR is made.
IANAL but went through all of above and am now a pr
Slight exception in Quebec though. Quebec has its own immigration rules & policies. Quebec do not follow rest of Canada's Express Entry or provincial nomination. In regards to obtaining a skilled work permit in Quebec, its a longer process with Federal + Provincial involvement. ie: LMIA (Federal) + CAQ (Quebec).
In Quebec there are no BOWP. So if you lost your job, you have to move out of Quebec province and get another LMIA work permit. Getting a permanent residency while working and residing in Quebec is not easy as Quebec's immigration system and policies are archaic and downright broken with more importance given to French language than any other employable skills. Recently 18,000 Quebec applications were downright rejected by Quebec in the name of bringing in a new skill based immigration system.
I would suggest anyone looking to move to Quebec in a skilled work permit or applying for residency while residing in Quebec to refrain from it as it will take at least 4 years (CSQ - 2 years + Federal - 2 years ) instead of 6 months in comparison with the rest of Canada. This applies to foreign students who come to study in Quebec too.
I have been through LCA some years back before I called bullshit on H1B and immigrated to Canada for good. For LCA, the advertisement was done on a local newspaper which no one reads and the job was posted on the company pantry notice board with a broad confusing salary range 65K - 130K. It was also posted on the company's career page where no one could find it easily. The employer that I worked for was a top 10. They were just playing the system to bring in cheap H1B workers on chains.
LMIA on the other hand, has advertisement requirements like LCA and a transition plan as well. They are particularly strict on the transition plan including one of which is assisting the worker for permanent residence !
Are you sure ? Increasing the masters quota for H1B will worsen things. Here is why. A majority of Masters degree holders in the US are those students who couldn't crack the basic campus recruitment in India for software companies during their Bachelors.
So they take a stab at it once more by investing in a masters degree in US which increases their H1B lottery chances. I am not generalizing all the masters degree holders but a major chunk of them.
> A majority of Masters degree holders in the US are those students who couldn't crack the basic campus recruitment in India for software companies during their Bachelors.
The majority? How did you get that data? Sounds like proper BS to me. Campus recruitment in India is a joke. There's nothing to "crack" there. How do you explain the same majority completing their graduate studies in the US (much harder than in India) and getting jobs in the US (also much harder than in India)?
If there was no market for Master degree H1Bs who fake their experiences on their resume, how do you explain all those thriving body shops in the US ? Just how many of them are in New Jersey alone.
See the LCA filings data from DOL.
> If there was no market for Master degree H1Bs who fake their experiences on their resume
I did not say that and this was not your original assertion.
> How do you explain all those thriving body shops in the US ? Just how many of them are in New Jersey alone. See the LCA filings data from DOL.
This still does not explain your claims of:
1. Those people not being able to "crack" campus recruitment of Indian companies.
2. Those people actually being the majority who come to get a Master's degree. I saw your doc and filtered exactly like you said. I didn't see a "majority" number. Perhaps you are using that term very casually?
as an immigrant who got an MS degree in US and worked on H1b visa, what you say is quite a simplification of what it takes to move to a different country, get a master's degree and survive long enough to get a H1b visa.
A tiny chunk of them may do this, by going to so shady US universities. But that's a very small %age
SAAQ,SAQ and Revenue Quebec too, but not all govt sites.
The immigration site of Quebec govt. sucks with huge down times, bad UX and even data loss of many aspiring skilled economic immigrants. May be because its for immigrants and temporary workers, so no one cares.
It's not because Canada is accepting a lot of professionals relative to the lesser number of jobs.
Canada's institutions do not accept the immigrant professional's academic credentials, training or their work experience.
A general nurse with 15 years of work experience from India cannot practice the same job duties in Canada due to this restrictions. So they resort to other jobs like home care.
A lot of immigrant nurses in Québec who are from India and Philippines are working in factories now because Québec nurse's association do not recognize their nursing degrees.
The doctors who immigrate drive taxis in Toronto because their credentials are not recognized.
Unlike in the US, for some reason Canadian regulatory bodies have a hard time recognizing credentials of immigrant professionals there by forcing them to take up another job.
A colleague tells me there is this Canadian doctor's and nurses lobby which "protects" the Canadian professional order from immigrant professionals who have come to take up their jobs.
Right now, only IT professionals are accepted as they are. Every other professionals immigrating to Canada should be prepared to re certify their professions or take up additional courses.
This news has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Not everyone moves to Canada after they get a residency thru the Express Entry system. The majority of them do something called "soft landing" to activate their permanent resident card and go back to US the same day. They use Canada as a plan B if something happens with their greencard process in future. This is actually detrimental for other eligible people who have applied for express entry because H1Bs fill the top layers of the express entry system and thus the permanent residence permits go wasted because H1Bs don't come to stay in Canada.
Québec is an exception here and do not follow merit based system. So the immigrants coming in Québec are not skilled or employable and is a burden to Canadians. On the other hand, skilled applicants in Québec are waiting 4-5 years for a permit from Québec because Quebec do not follow merit system. The new CAQ leader is also against immigration and has vowed to cut down immigration. So any startups planning to have an office should be aware of this. Québec IT employers are struggling to find talents because of the dysfunctional immigration department of Québec.
Now the highly regarded global talent stream is only applicable to large employers.
Startups still have to go the hard way. Getting an LMIA work permit will take 3-6 months and renewing it will also take the same amount of time.
Overall, Canada's Express Entry system is a merit based system. But the candidates do not need to prove their technical skills. Anyone with a Bachleor's degree, a good command of English and 3 years of work experience can get a residency in Canada. This doesn't necessarily mean there is talent. Moreover, a talented international worker might travel to many countries, so if you are an applicant who have travelled to many countries, 6 months express entry time do not apply, Canada will put you thru something called Security Screening which can last 1 to 2 years.
So the 6 months timeline are for people who haven't travelled a lot or worked at many countries. It's just for a less experienced Bachelor degree holder with a good command of English. Do not come to Canada for the money, salaries are not that great.
Toronto and Vancouver housing prices are pumped up thanks to Quebec's money for citizenship scheme. Québec immigration is dysfunctional, so good luck finding talents in Montreal for your startup.
> The majority of them do something called "soft landing" to activate their permanent resident card and go back to US the same day. They use Canada as a plan B if something happens with their greencard process in future.
This only buys a maximum of 3 years of insurance (from date of landing). After that, unless you're living with a Canadian citizen spouse, you'll lose PR unless you move to Canada.
Québec is not really a destination for skilled immigrants anyway because its immigration system is bloated and delayed. It takes 4 years to immigrate to Québec while 6 months elsewhere in Canada. Probably the CAQ government is adhering to its voter base by this.