(random anecdote) My first and last experience with FreeBSD laptop was trying to use 3.x (!) on a Dell Inspiron 3500 (PII-350 maybe?), no sound modules were precompiled or included or whatever. Took about 3 days for `make world` to finally finish rebuilding... and then sound still not work. Red Hat 6.x "just worked" in all regards.
Let me know when you can get a Dell XPS 13 (2024/25) working with FreeBSD out of the box without the need to hunt documentation down for the following.
- audio
- wifi
- biometrics
- GPU drivers that work well.
Unless you're trying to run your XPS on FreeBSD 3.x, I don't see what that has to do with either comment in this thread. Really really old OSs had problems. Current OSs also have problems, including that no OS supports all hardware, but I don't really see any connection between an anecdote about sound problems literally last century and missing drivers today.
Everything I mentioned many would consider to be essential parts of their system that should work, and would then fall under "Support and Usability" initiatives.
I guess I'm pointing out that his experience 20 something years ago is still relevant today, even if there's a lower barrier to entry now.
Do the biometrics work on Linux? Last time I had a laptop with a fingerprint reader the whole thing was controlled by some Broadcom thing that was hostile to anything not made by Microsoft. A fingerprint reader is a highly optional feature so it's not a problem if it is not working.
Yeah, I was also thinking of pointing out that I own a Dell XPS and AFAIK its fingerprint reader has never worked on Linux and the GPU is... well, it works these days, but Nvidia still isn't exactly the nicest thing on Linux.
My fingerprint worked out of the box on Linux Mint, as did NVIDIA Prime with the mobile 3080. Hibernation is historically (and still is) the main issue in linux land for me.
* And I believe those hibernation issues are related to corrupted graphics stacks because Nvidia, ha.
That's the answer I'd give to someone asking me to just run linux when I'm ranting about some commercial OS.
But I think the point of FreeBSD is more to provide something that you wouldn't get otherwise, and justifies going above and beyond to get it properly working.
My own anecdote is running the 4x and then 5x versions on my cobbled parts crappy desktop as a student and getting excelent perfs for how cheap it was, while still having linux level CJK and multi-input support and stellar stability.
I wouldn't do that anymore, but hope it stays an option for those with other specific needs that a BSD OS would help.
We had 2U VA Linux servers at a company (circa 2000), they were rock solid beasts which continued to run for years. I vaguely remember cannibalizing one chassis to beef up another / replace parts, but as you mentioned by then it was circa 2003 (?) and one could buy palettes of dotcom-bust servers off a dock in SF. A fully kitted HP DL380-G2 was around $100 IIRC, bought one it ran forever too - old Sun and SGI hardware as well, all of it. Dirt cheap, if you still had a job. :-/
I'm mildly surprised GKH doesn't deploy SSL. In this day and age I just close the browser window when the http-only browser warning comes up and move on to something else.
IMHO based on my use of the fediverse, fundamentally it's about porn and curtailing unwanted porn in your domain. I'm a user of mastodon.social in the "wee US hours" (before US mods are awake) and run across a lot of hit-and-run porn being pushed to Trending (and I report, etc.).
It's a thing, it happens a lot and Lemmy instances have the same problems to fight. Unwanted porn in my eyeballs is sadly a not uncommon experience until you've put in effort to set up blocks and filters on your personal accounts. Peertube being explicitly video based is a natural target for porn pushers.
FWIW, blocking policy on 2 blocks (at least some, Qobuz for me) streaming sites and bandcamp (bandcamp being the more problematic one as every band is on their own subdomain and you can’t (I think) just allow all of them).
I seem to have no problems streaming from either Bandcamp or Qobuz, the latter which I'd never heard of before. (or as far as I'm aware any other site) I intentionally want to click-to-play on every site out there, so perhaps you mean "blocks autoplay" or somesuch?
nod We have different use cases, for my browser use I'm using it as described mainly for one-off playing of content (think like watching a single video from a hotlink, checking out a single track or two from a new band, etc.). For streaming I'm a shoutcast/icecast oriented person, tried and true. :)
This was the first one I looked for as well, NFCU is (per Wikipedia) the largest CU in terms of size and membership in the US - but wasn't included. I think you should add a "how I chose these Credit Unions" on your overview, as missing NFCU immediately made me wonder what others were missed; RBFCU - largest in TX and 10th largest in US - is missing as well. So I'm left to wonder how 2 of the largest CUs in the country were just... missed.
Codeberg has been under DDOS attacks for most of 2025, someone out there has it in for them and has been attacking relentlessly. The volunteer team has been very transparent posting about in social media and their blogs.
I think that even with someone having it out for them, the unfortunate reality of running a web service in 2025 is you have to be prepared to handle this and going down for hours at a time isn’t handling it.
On the previous HN article, I recall many a comment talking about how they should change this, leave the politics/negative juju out because it was a bad look for the Zig community.
It would appear they listened to that feedback, swallowed their ego/pride and did what was best for the Zig community with these edits. I commend them for their actions in doing what's best for the community at the cost of some personal mea culpa edits.
I often find we don't appreciate enough people accepting their failures and changing their mind. For some reason I see the opposite: people respecting those who "stick to their guns" or double down when something is clearly wrong. As you say, the context matters and these edits seem to be learning from the feedback rather than saving face since the sentiment stands, just in a less needlessly targeted way.
Never understood that either. If someone was wrong and bad, and now they're trying to do right and good, we need to celebrate that. Not just because that's awesome in itself, but also to give the opportunity and incentives for others in the future to do better.
If everyone is always bad regardless if they're trying to change, what incentives would they have from changing at all? It doesn't make any sense.
The incentive is less about morals and very much about self-preservation.
With online mobs, when the target shows any sort of regret there is blood in the water and the sharks feast. It sometimes turns into a very public form of struggle session for the person under scrutiny. Besides avoiding the faux pas in the first place, one well-tested mitigation is to be absolutely unapologetic and wait for the storm to blow over.
For what it’s worth, I found the original announcement childish and unnecessarily negative towards people working on the product (against their CoC which I found hilarious and hypocritical), and I find it refreshing that they updated the post to phrase their criticism much more professional.
I think that real honesty works well as long as you have the character to stand up for yourself. An unflinchingly honest self-assessment which shows that you understand the error and rectified it is almost always the path to take.
Acknowledgement of mistakes do not invoke much of a mob reaction unless there is wavering, self-pity, or appeals for leniency. Self-preservation should be assumed and not set as a goal -- once you appear to be doing anything that can be thought of as covering up or minimizing or blaming others, the mob will latch on to that and you get no consideration from then on.
The other part of the equation is not letting bad people get away with doing bad stuff if they do good stuff after that. The return on doing bad stuff, then good stuff has to be greater than the return on only doing bad stuff, but less than the return on only doing good stuff. It should increase over time the more you don't do bad stuff again.
I agree with the sentiment (people changing their minds), but the flipside to that is people pleasing. Someone who capitulates under even the slightest pressure is not much better than the person who is set in their ways.
The trouble there, of course, is that the motivation for changing (or not changing) one's mind is not always clear, and it's easy to score points from spinning it one way or another.
Engineers are not exactly famous for people-pleasing. Maybe management, but engineering? Maybe some fresh junior?
I'm not convinced that the existence of a low-probability event justifies normalizing the regular occurrence of a much more likely (and negative) event, like a belligerent engineer throwing a fit in a design meeting. I'd go as far as to say I'm open to more people-pleasers in engineering.
Also, fwiw, if you want to know why someone changed their mind, you can just ask them and see how you feel about the answer. If someone changes their mind at the drop of a hat, my guess is that their original position was not a strongly held one.
You and I obviously have different experiences because I encounter belligerent engineers much less frequently than ones who are enthusiastic to do what they can, and those who don't want to rock the boat when challenged.
I thought I made a fairly innocuous point, I don't even think I was talking about engineers specifically.
You can’t read people’s mind, so when in doubt, assume good intention.
It’s not particularly relevant (to me as a random non-zig affiliated HN reader) why they right their wrongs, as long as they did it, I find it positive (at least better than if they had left the monkey comments in the post).
Well, it's not like it's a simple black and white situation, universally applicable to every debate in human history. Sometimes it is relatively better to be open-minded and able to change own opinion. Sometimes it is relatively better to keep pushing a point if it is rational and/or morally correct.
The reason why the latter stance is often popularized and cheered is because it is often harder to do, especially in the adverse conditions, when not changing your opinion has a direct cost of money or time or sanity or in rare cases even freedom. Usually it involves small human group or individual against a faceless corporation, making it even harder. Of course we should respect people standing against corporation.
PS: this is not applicable if they are "clearly wrong" of course.
Consider the plight of a policy-maker who changes their stance on some issue. They may have changed their mind in light of new information, or evolved their position as a result of deeper reflection, personal experience, or maturation. Opponents will accuse them of "waffling" or "flip-flopping", indicating a lack of reliability or principles (if not straight-up bribery). Elected officials are responsible for expressing the will of the people they represent, so if they're elected largely by proponents of issue X, it is arguably a betrayal of sorts for them to be as dynamic as private citizens.
This is tangential to the original topic of insider trading, where the corruption is structural / systemic -- akin to how "conflict of interest" objectively describes a scenario, not an individual's behavior.
The demonization of "flip-flopping" is so stupid. Bro, I want my politicians to change their minds when new facts arise or when public sentiment changes. The last thing we need is more dogmatic my-way-or-the-highway politicians that refuse to change their minds about anything.
Reminds me of Stephen Colbert's roast of George W. Bush at the 2006 White House Correspondents' Dinner:
> The greatest thing about this man is he's steady. You know where he stands. He believes the same thing Wednesday that he believed on Monday, no matter what happened Tuesday. Events can change; this man's beliefs never will.
1) People don't really vote based on logic and sound reasoning. They vote based on what sounds right to them. If they're unhappy with something, they vote for somebody who also claims to be unhappy about it, regardless if he has any actual solutions.
2) Even for the minority who wants to vote based on sound principles, it's very hard to push information back to them. If the politician changes his mind, he has to explain it to his voters. Are there really platforms which allow in-depth conversations in political debates?
Every university classroom has a whiteboard and a projector. Because you need to draw graphs, diagrams, etc. You need to explain the general structure and then focus on the details without losing track of the whole.
Is there a single country where politicians use either when talking to each other or voters?
While I agree with you, I find it hard to argue against the view that politicians are elected for the views they held during their campaign. They may change their mind after being elected, but their constituents that voted for them will not all change their mind simultaneously. To the ones that don't change their mind, it does appear to be a betrayal of their principles. A rational politician would not want to gain that kind of reputation out of pure self-interest.
I would be much more inclined to continue voting for a politician who could explain their policy position as it changes in an open and sensible way. Politicians putting on a speech that sounds truthful and honest and like a discussion is happening between adults is so rare - it seems that very few people want that. I do though.
Well, it was comparing people with monkeys and calling them losers. It was a straightforward personal insult. Writing something online in a blog is like making a public announcement on a market with 100s listening. No one except someone who wants to inflame would use such words in the real world. People just forget that they are speaking in the public. And in that case not only for himself but also for others.
> I often find we don't appreciate enough people accepting their failures and changing their mind.
Because this plays into a weird flaw in cognition that people have. When people become leaders because they are assholes and they are wrong, then after the wind blows the other way they see the light and do a mea culpa, there is always a certain segment that says that they're even more worthy to be a leader because they have the ability to change. They yell at the people who were always right that they are dogmatic and ask "why should people change their minds if they will be treated like this?"
If one can't see what's wrong with this toy scenario that I've strawmanned here, that's a problem. The only reason we ever cared about this person is because they were loud and wrong about everything. Now, we are expected to be proud of them because they are right, and make sure that they don't lose any status or position for admitting that. This becomes a new reason for the people who were previously attacking the people who were right to continue to attack the people who were right, who are also now officially dogmatic puritans whose problem is that they weren't being right correctly.
This is a social phenomenon, not a personality flaw in these leaders. People can be wrong and then right. People can not care either way and latch onto a trend for attention or profit, and follow it where it goes. I don't think either of these things are in and of themselves morally problematic. The problem is that there are people who are simply following individual personalities and repeating what they say, change their minds when that personality changes their mind, and whose primary aim is to attack anyone who is criticizing that personality. They don't really care about the issue in question (and usually don't know much about it), they're simply protecting that personality like a family member.
This, again, doesn't matter when the subject is stupid, like some aesthetic or consumer thing He used to hate the new Batman movies but now he says that he misunderstood them; who cares. But when the subject is a real life or death thing, or involves serious damage to people's lives and careers, it's poisonous when a vocal minority becomes dedicated to this personality worship.
It's so common that there now seems to be a pipeline of born-agains in front of everything, giving their opinion. Sir, you were a satanist until three years ago.
The flaw in your argument is referring to the people who are “always right.”
Those people don’t exist. Which is exactly why the ability to change your opinion when presented with new information is a critical quality in a good leader.
I think it's because when people do a 180 due to public pressure, it's hard to know to what degree they changed their mind and to what degree they are just lying about what is on their mind.
Toning down aggressive phrasing is not "doing a 180", calling the change from "only losers left at GitHub" to "the engineering excellence has left" lying seems disingenuous.
> I often find we don't appreciate enough people accepting their failures and changing their mind. For some reason I see the opposite: people respecting those who "stick to their guns" or double down when something is clearly wrong.
As I see it, someone who "listened to that feedback, swallowed their ego/pride" would include a note at the end of the post about the edits. Admitting you were wrong requires not erasing the evidence of what you said.
(He did post a kind of vague apology in https://ziggit.dev/t/migrating-from-github-to-codeberg-zig-p..., but it's ambiguous enough that anyone who was offended is free to read it as either retracting the offending accusation, or not. This is plausibly the best available alternative for survival in the current social-media landscape, because it's at best useless to apologize to a mob that's performatively offended on behalf of people they don't personally know, and usually counterproductive because it marks you as a vulnerable victim, but the best available alternative might still tend to weaken the kind of integrity we're talking about rather than strengthen it.)
> Admitting you were wrong requires not erasing the evidence of what you said.
I don't think there's really an obligation to announce to newcomers, "hey, an earlier version of this post was overly inflammatory." But you should be forthright about your mistake to people who confront you about it, which is what's happening in the forum thread you linked. I think this is all fine.
Perhaps you should frame it differently if you speak for a company and provide criticism on a public platform, but mean tweets are often far less insulting that some business decisions customers and developers are subjected to.
I think developers here are probably perfectly innocent about these changes. The product mangers have to push for this integration or get replaced. This has been a theme at Microsoft for quite a while.
I don't see the need for a note in this case because what was there wasn't wrong, there's plenty of evidence that supports it. It's just that the tone they used that was inadequate and very rude for no reason, so they edited it to be more polite, it doesn't seem a correction or retraction.
You mean, on a third-party website that currently happens to have a capture of the page outside of the Zig team's control, one which can go down at any time?
There is utility in indicating how surprised / concerned you are at a certain process or event. We can flatten out all communication and boil everything down to an extremely neutral "up", "down", and "nailed it to exacting precision".
I find the fact that this painting has been hung crooked by 0.00001º: down
I find torture and mass murder: down
Clearly this is a ridiculous state of affairs. There's more gradations available than this.
Possibly coloured by my dutch culture: I think this rewrite is terrible. The original sentence was vastly superior, though I think the first rewrite (newbies to rookies) was an improvement.
The zig team is alarmed, and finds this state of affairs highly noteworthy and would like to communicate this more emotional, gut instincty sense in their words.
There's a reason humans invent colourful language and epithets. They always do, in all languages. Because it's useful!
And this rewrite takes it out. That's not actually a good thing. The fact that evidently the internet is so culturally USA-ised that any slightly colourful language is instantly taken as a personal affront and that in turn completely derails the entire debate into a pointless fight over etiquitte and whether something is 'appropriate' is fucking childish. I wish it wasn't so.
In human communication, the US is somewhat notorious in how flattened its emotional range is of interaction amongst friendly folk. One can bring anthropology into it if one must: Loads of folks from vastly different backgrounds all moving to a vast expanse of land? Given that cultural misunderstanding is extremely likely and the cost of such a misunderstanding is disastrously high, best plaster a massive smile on your face and be as diplomatic as you can be!
Consider as a practical example: Linus Torvalds' many famed communications. "NVidia? Fuck you!" was good. It made clear, in a very, very pithy way, that Linus wasn't just holding a negative opinion about the quality and behaviour of the nvidia gfx driver team at the time, but that this negative opinion was universal across a broad range of concerns and extremely so. It caused a shakeup where one was needed. All in 3 little words.
(Possibly the fact that the internet in general is even more incapable of dealing with colourful language is not necessarily the fault of USification of the internet: The internet is a lot like early US, at least in the sense that the risk of cultural misunderstanding is far higher than in face to face communications on most places on the planet).
If I could upvote you, I would. I have never liked the mob of people that think we should all be super diplomatic corpospeakers who hedge everything and who think that not doing so is "offensive" or "unprofessional". I definitely didn't think anything was wrong with the original sentences or word usage, because it wasn't aimed at any specific individual with the deliberate intent of being offensive, but was aimed at Microsoft itself. And even if the intent was to be offensive, well, on the internet your always going to offend someone. You could be super nice and say all the right words and someone would still find a way to be offended by it. And were these circumstances ordinary, I would call out the word usage as well, because it would be uncalled for. But given all the evidence that the original points at, it's rather hard to say that GitHub didn't deserve it. And it is also rather difficult for me to see how this wasn't the time or place for such language. Sometimes the only way to get your point across is to be "unprofessional" (whatever that means these days).
There's a reason humans invent colourful language and epithets. They always
do, in all languages. Because it's useful!
I have never liked the mob of people that think we should all be super
diplomatic corpospeakers who hedge everything and who think that not doing
so is "offensive" or "unprofessional".
Agreed with you and OP. More to the point, the final rewrite leaves out any meaningful why. Perhaps they could/should be more diplomatic about their distaste, but leaving it out all together leaves quite the elephant in the room.
Then again the front end rewrite (which GitHub was crowing about for quite a while) and doubling down on AI nonsense got me to stop using GH for personal projects and to stop contributing to projects hosted on GH.
Thanks for pointing this out! I looked at the edit history and without looking at the timestamps assumed it was in reverse chronological order. Seeing that I was wrong brought a smile to my face.
I appreciate that Andrew and the other Zig team members are really passionate about their project, their goals, and the ideals behind those goals. I was dismayed by the recent news of outbursts which do a lot to undermine their goals. That they’re listening to feedback and trying to take the high road (despite feeling a lot of frustration with the direction industry is taking) should be commended.
Zig is the language that was intentionally made to fail and error out on windows carriage returns instead of parsing them like every language ever made. They made a version for windows and then made it not work with every windows text editor. Their answer was to 'get better text editors' or 'make a preprocessing program to strip out carriage returns' or 'don't use windows' (they had a windows executable).
This is not a group with community or pragmatism from the start.
You want a language that releases a compiler on a specific platform then intentionally breaks it for everyone on something trivial just to troll and irritate them?
Every text editor on windows adds a carriage return by default.
You haven't given any actual reasons this makes sense, if you don't like windows why would you be using it in the first place? Why would you care what text editor people use?
Why would it be ok to release something on a platform just to annoy your own users?
>Every text editor on windows adds a carriage return by default.
Either you should know your tool well enough to turn it off, or tools shouldn't make obscure changes to the output that the user did not specify, either way Zig is absolutely correct in not allowing for either case, I wasn't aware of this but it makes me even more convinced of their principles.
Either you should know your tool well enough to turn it off,
Everyone can do that and by saying this you have already missed the point.
You think literally all windows text is "obscure changes to the output"? Have you ever used windows? All text you have ever saved has a carriage return in it.
Zig is absolutely correct in not allowing for either case
Then why does every other language, text editor and text tool in existence deal with this single extra character?
I wasn't aware of this but it makes me even more convinced of their principles.
Which are what exactly? Making a windows version that doesn't work to intentionally annoy their users?
There is no rationalization you can come up with that isn't hypocritical here unless you admit that you just like malice towards windows users, because that's all it is.
The expurgation of "losers" less so.
Who are losers here? Zig users who tried it on windows or people who know what a carriage return is?
Evidently you did not read the original release or the top comment, but this has nothing to do with carriage return.
You replied 5 comments deep in a thread about zig intentionally annoying users by erroring out on something simple that every other program or library on windows deals with automatically.
But you're right, where possible I try to avoid Windows.
You're backpedaling now. Originally you were trying to rationalize someone intentionally releasing a broken program to troll people.
Last I checked even Apple migrated to LF. Perhaps it's time for Windows to stop being the odd man out? Regardless:
not work with every windows text editor
Last I checked both Visual Studio Code and Notepad++ can both make line endings configurable. That covers a plurality of use cases. Even the built-in Notepad supports using CR or LF only for going on eight years now.
Hard agree. Literally every Windows editor I've ever used, except Notepad, allows me to configure it to save CRLF or LF or sometimes even CR files. And I always just leave it on LF because it's easier.
Old Notepad support should not be a priority for a language implementer. Get a real text editor, they're varied and plentiful. This was always a non-issue drudged up by nobody actually interested in using Zig and so it was rightfully ignored.
Perhaps it's time for Windows to stop being the odd man out?
This is the same nonsense rationalizations that zig gave. Windows is the odd man out. If you want to release something on windows you match an extra byte on the ends of lines. It isn't that hard and even the simplest toy language does it. It's just part of line splitting, it isn't even something that happens at the language stage.
Last I checked both Visual Studio Code and Notepad++ can both make line endings configurable.
Last time I checked it was totally unnecessary because no other language releases for a platform and tries to punish their users. Options like that are to make files match while being worked on for different platforms, not so that a compiler doesn't try to punish and troll its users for using it.
If you want to release something on windows you match an extra byte on the ends of lines
Did I miss some sort of formal directive from Microsoft or is this just outrage that someone dared do something not up to your standards?
try to punish and troll its users for using it
Nobody's being punished. Configuring your dev environment is something people do for every language. Let's add some perspective here: we're talking about a single runtime option for your text editor of choice. BFD. More to the point, why isn't your editor or IDE properly supporting Zig files?
Did I miss some sort of formal directive from Microsoft or is this just outrage that someone dared do something not up to your standards?
It's just the way it works, it isn't my standards, it is literally any piece of software that detects line breaks.
Nobody's being punished. Configuring your dev environment is something people do for every language.
No one has to configure around this issue because it is trivially solved and dealt with by every piece of software on the planet. It takes longer to write an error message than it does it just split a line correctly.
Let's add some perspective here: we're talking about a single runtime option for your text editor of choice.
Let's add some perspective here: they intentionally broke their own software to upset 72% of their potential users.
More to the point, why isn't your editor or IDE properly supporting Zig files?
No one has to care about zig, it's a niche language that doesn't care about its users, it's irrelevant except for hacker news threads.
If some language started demanding you save all your text files with carriage returns or will will error out, what would you think?
You sound like a lawyer grasping at straws instead of someone with a reasonable perspective that wouldn't be hypocritical when flipped around.
You sound like a lawyer grasping at straws instead of
someone with a reasonable perspective that wouldn't be
hypocritical when flipped around.
What lawyer speak? You're throwing a temper tantrum over a situation entirely of your own making. That there's a Windows port of Zig and sufficient users to justify its continued existence pretty clearly shows your hyperbole isn't representative in the way you claim.
Were I in a situation where I needed to work with something not expecting LF line termination I'd either configure my dev environment appropriately or find tools that do what I want.
No one has to care about zig, it's a niche language that doesn't
care about its users, it's irrelevant except for hacker news threads.
So when it's your tool selection nobody has to care? But when someone else makes a decision you disagree with it's the end of the world? Gotcha. Don't check that checkbox. Stay mad, bro.
You didn't confront anything I wrote and instead just made up something no one said. All I did say was that zig is intentionally hostile to their own users, which they are.
If you could actually deal with what I wrote I think you would have done it already.
No, we're at the you're making an emotional argument backed by hyperbole and I'm moving on stage. Look at your language: punished, trolled, "any piece of software", "every piece of software", "it takes longer to write an error message than it does it just split a line correctly", "lawyer grasping at straws".
You're personally aggrieved because someone dared release a compiler that runs on windows but doesn't accept non-standard line endings. I've already addressed what you've said but you've responded with a bunch of handwaving because you're merely making an emotional argument.
If you'd like me at address what you wrote again:
it takes longer to write an error message than it does it just split a line correctly
It takes longer to write your tantrums than to configure your development environment correctly.
No you haven't. You haven't addressed anything I've said, like legitimate reasons for doing it or what you would think if other languages did the same thing on other OSs.
you're merely making an emotional argument.
Seems like projection. I wrote things that actually happened.
It takes longer to write your tantrums
I know it would be convenient to frame things this way but if you could confront what I'm saying you would have done it with all the chances you had.
Why won't you respond to what I'm saying? I think it's because there is no real defense and you know that.
> This is the same nonsense rationalizations that zig gave.
I'm guessing you didn't live through the early days of webdev when you had to jump through ridiculous hoops just to support IE. At least back then there was the excuse that IE had the lions share of the market and many corporate users.
The industry wide acceptance of supporting IE majorly held back what websites/apps were capable of being. Around 2012ish (right as I was leaving webdev) more and more major teams started to stop supporting earlier broken versions of IE (this was largely empowered by the rising popularity of Chrome). This had a major impact on improving the state of web applications, and also got MS to seriously improve their web browser. Moves like this one by the Zig team are the only way you're going to push Microsoft to improve the situation.
Now you may claim "but Windows is 70% of users!" but this issue doesn't impact anyone wanting to run Zig applications, only those writing them. If you're an inexperienced dev that's super curious about Zig, this type of error might be another good nudge that maybe Windows isn't the OS you want to be working on.
Now you may claim "but Windows is 70% of users!" but this issue doesn't impact anyone wanting to run Zig applications, only those writing them.
No one is confused about how a compiler works. Those people being intentionally trolled are called your users when you make a language.
If you're an inexperienced dev that's super curious about Zig, this type of error might be another good nudge that maybe Windows isn't the OS you want to be working on.m
Then why did they make a windows version? Any normal person just sees that they shouldn't invest time in a language intentionally annoying it's own users for trying it out.
You still haven't come up with any explanation, your whole tangent about internet explorer has no relevance. There isn't one part of your comment that makes sense. Why would you even care about other people's OS and text editors? What kind of fanaticism would lead to wanting to use a language because they intentionally annoy users of something you aren't even involved in?
The whole thing is basically a case of "this things doesn't stand on any merits, I've just decided that I don't like certain people and they did something to upset them even though they are really just shooting themselves in the foot".
I did prefer that honest line about bloated, buggy Javascript framework. Otherwise might as well ask an LLM to spit out a sanitized apology text for your change in provider. Just like ten thousand identical others copied from a playbook. Allow your eyes to comfortably glaze over with zero retention.
Perhaps the final edit should have included the complaint about 'buggy bloated Javascript' as that's a very substantive issue - and now I don't know if they changed that as 'tone' or because they decided that technical criticism wasn't correct, and there are other issues?
Well, no, they still acted based on the original ego/pride, they just changed blogpost to look different.
I mean, reason of "we don't want to be tied with direction MS takes" is good enough, not sure why they felt need to invent reasons and nitpick some near irrelevant things just to excuse their actions
ICE, Actions, and Microsoft, not a single complaint about git itself. All I see is they have CI issues coupled with dumbest anti AI policy that is impossible for them to enforce. Giving up your donations and losing half your community doesn't seem like an intelligent move when all you had to do is update your CI.
> ICE, Actions, and Microsoft, not a single complaint about git itself
Codeberg is also a Git-based project host. It doesn't even support other repo types. Why would you be expecting the latter?
If a project announcement or article headline says someone/something is quitting or leaving GitHub, it makes a lot of sense to assume that their issue is with GitHub (and in this case, it would be an assumption they'd be right about).
I was pointing out how ironic it was for them to move from git SaaS to git SaaS while having no issues with git on the git SaaS they're moving away from. Make sense?
Only if they use it purely as a git SaaS which they don't, it's also an issue tracker and discussion forum. Even PRs aren't strictly a git concept. Given they use all those things and given they're against having AI features built into them, it does not seem ironic to me at all.
You're conflating GitHub the platform with GitHub the bundle of services. CI is optional, swappable, not unique to GitHub. Sponsorship infrastructure and discoverability are not. The complaints target the optional layer. The migration sacrifices the sticky layer. That's backwards, and ironic, with the intention of being performative. It's almost like selling your car because a tire lost some air, lol.
ICE, Actions, and Microsoft, not a single complaint about git itself.
…
all you had to do is update your CI
Updating your CI only addresses one of the issues you raised, and you forgot about the front-end complaints which also wouldn't be addressed by "updating your CI".
It's all faux outrage, they didn't give a shit about ICE or MSFT until they could use it as a rage bait prop.
Imagine being a slave to any SCM UI when cli tools and desktop clients have existed for ages not to mention integration into nearly every IDE. Also, what they're describing "random" workflows is classic ci build machine went offline and came back later.
Regardless, best of luck to them, hopefully they don't run into any more "monkeys", that would be terrible for them.
That's kind of what they are doing - the move is 'updating their CI' to Codeberg Actions which is presumably more reliable. All the git workflows stay the same.
> I completely agree with this. I performed really poorly on this axis. I’m sorry to the Zig community for that. I’ll take my L and get back to working on std.Io and the rest of the roadmap. [1]
> I do feel bad for hurting your feelings but I also strongly believe that you should not be proud of working for Microsoft, and particularly on GitHub for the last 5 years. I truly am sorry but you need to be called out.
As a former user I felt these pain points trying to do nothing more than have a very active one-on-one chat with a good friend. Tens of messages an hour, maybe 2 years running. Using matrix.org and the pre-X clients. It's fine for group chat (IRC style) but that's not a high bar.
(a) the encryption between using a mobile and the webapp desyncs/breaks all the time, it just sucks. I mean you'll get "cannot decrypt" a lot, have to bounce back and forth and generally try and force it to re-sync properly again. Sometimes never worked at all. Lots of issues on GH over the years.
(b) as mentioned in this article, insane delays on new message notif and sending and receiving. Just logging in on the webapp every morning took minutes of some sort of mysterious sync process, often the mobile app had the same problems. The X stuff may fix this, we were pre-X.
(c) cleanup. There's no message retention set on matrix.org, when I wanted to extract and remove our past chats the process and experience was excruciatingly bad. It took tens of hours over several weekends of the webapp (mobile completely non-op in practice for this) polling and loading old content, just so I could select 100 at a time to delete and then it took an hour. Once I started culling back over a year or so, the loading got longer and longer and longer, until eventually it 100% stopped working at all to load old messages.
Signal and DeltaChat are far, far better experiences for one-on-one chats with friends & family. The Delta client is a bit UI/UX behind but not horrible; e.g. you can't correct a typo in a sent message in Delta, unlike Signal - because each msg is a unique gpg-encrypted "email" rather than a database object that can be re-manipulated.
a) As of when? I had a "cannot decrypt" room failure on matrix.org a year ago.
b) Unfortunately, X breaks other important things, like audio/video calls. It currently feels like an alpha-quality release: buggy and lots of missing features. Not ready for widespread use.
I felt bad making a long thread once I opened Element X and saw it didn't have support for threads.
Someone let me know later that threads are hidden behind a Labs setting, but it only allows the client to reply to threads, but still exposes the entire thread inline for the channel which sucks up all the air in the chat.
I am describing what I see on Element X on iOS today. If someone replies to threads, it is not hidden and navigable on this client. Even after switching the labs feature on, the app was showing the thread interspersed with the rest of the conversation.
Uninstalling the app, reinstalling, and making sure the labs option is turned on before navigating to a room with threads, is behaving how I expect.
So maybe, its a bug that the room does not re-render after toggling that setting.
I'm sorry you had a crap time, and agreed that in the past things were not great. But in defence of the Matrix team, we fixed almost all known encryption in ~Sept 2024, and the new generation of clients fixes the slow sync issues.
Hi Arathorn, I recognize your name as the core developer lead. :) Alas, when I was trying to cull my old messages I tried that (and a lot of other API type hacks I found floating around) and none of them, at that time, worked.
In short: the complete lack of user-facing easy to use controls for data retention and culling in the Matrix (Element) clients is a deal killer for me. That painful experience taught me a lesson - now when I test something new, one of the first things I look for is "how do I extract from this thing?". I never want to go through my Matrix extraction pain again, so a personal life lesson was learned.
