> The latest ones cost billions and have confirmed a few things we already thought to be true.
Yes, but we had hopes that it would lead to more. And had lead to more, something only known to be false in hindsight, who knows where that would have ended us up? What if it upended the standard model instead of reinforcing it?
> Absolutely not.
What are we supposed to do then? As humans, I mean. No one knows why we're here, what the universe really is like. We have some pretty good models that we know are wrong and we don't know what wonders the theoretical implications of any successor models might bring. That said, do we really need to motivate fundamental research into the nature of reality with a promise of technology?
I'm not arguing for mindlessly building bigger accelerators, and I don't think anyone is - there has to exist a solid line of reasoning to warrant the effort. And we might find that there are smarter ways of getting there for less effort - great! But if there isn't, discrediting the venue of particle accelerators due to their high upfront cost as well as historical results would be a mistake. We can afford it, and we don't know the future.
>I'm not arguing for mindlessly building bigger accelerators, and I don't think anyone is
But you are and they are. Just by the comments here its clear that even suggesting not to use untold billions on maybe pushing theoretical physics a little forward is meet with scorn. The value proposition either, in knowledge or technology, is just not well argued anymore besides hand waving.
No, I'm not and neither is anyone else. It's common sense that we should explore options that require less effort, just as one would in any project. I'm saying that we can't discredit huge particle accelerators due to, in the grandest scheme of things, a small economic cost and past results of a different experiment.
> Yes, but we had hopes that it would lead to more. And had lead to more, something only known to be false in hindsight, who knows where that would have ended us up? What if it upended the standard model instead of reinforcing it?
Sure, but it didn't. Which is knowledge that really should factor into the decision to build the next, bigger one.
> What are we supposed to do then? As humans, I mean.
Invest the money and effort elsewhere, for now. There are many other fields of scientific exploration that are very likely to yield greater return (in knowledge and utility) for less. You could fund a hundred smaller but still substantial intiatives instead of one big accelerator. And be virtually guaranteed to have an exciting breakthrough in a few of them.
And who knows, maybe a breakthrough in material science or high-voltage electrophysics will substantially reduce the costs for a bigger particle accelerator?
>> Yes, but we had hopes that it would lead to more. And had lead to more, something only known to be false in hindsight, who knows where that would have ended us up? What if it upended the standard model instead of reinforcing it?
>Sure, but it didn't. Which is knowledge that really should factor into the decision to build the next, bigger one.
Not this week, no. And if, next week (or next year or next decade) we resolve some of the most significant problems in modern physics, any expenditures in those fields were a waste?
You've repeatedly bashed particle physics based on your perception of a lack of progress vis-a-vis the costs, and claimed that other fields should be prioritized. Which fields? What would you hope to gain from those fields?
Is there no room for basic research that attempts to validate the bases (Standard Model, Quantum Field Theory, the marriage of the former with General Relativity, etc.) of modern physics? If not why not? Our models are definitely wrong, but they're measurably less wrong than previous models.
Should we not continue to hone/probe those models to find the cracks in the theories underpinning those models? If we don't, how will we solve these extant issues?
> Which is knowledge that really should factor into the decision to build the next, bigger one.
It was always factored in, and of course it would be in any next iteration.
> Invest the money and effort elsewhere, for now. There are many other fields of scientific exploration that are very likely to yield greater return (in knowledge and utility) for less. You could fund a hundred smaller but still substantial intiatives instead of one big accelerator. And be virtually guaranteed to have an exciting breakthrough in a few of them.
I agree with this to a large extent. I'm just not against particle accelerators as a venue for scientific advancement and in the best of worlds we could do both.
Dogs are a special case. Humans are part of their soil, the soil they evolved in. They must have features (physical, behavioral) to manipulate humans into treating them like part of the group.
Think of the environment dogs evolved in. Small homogenous groups of humans. They aren’t even human, and humans still treated them as part of the in group, while at the same time killing people outside of their clan who looked and acted almost exactly like they did, certainly well within the bounds of what would today be a single nation or region within a nation.
Dogs and empathy towards them are totally compatible with human xenophobia or whatever we call it, there is no contradiction or hypocrisy here.
Starting a company in Sweden requires (uploaded PDF from Bolagsverket to ChatGPT who summarized):
1. Prepare the foundation deed and the articles of association.
2. Identify the beneficial owner(s).
3. Pay the share capital and obtain the bank certificate or auditor’s statement.
4. Submit the registration application for the limited company to the Swedish Companies Registration Office (Bolagsverket) and wait for approval.
5. If applicable: submit a certified copy of your passport (non-Swedish citizens).
6. Apply for F-tax approval and VAT registration and wait for the decision.
7. Register as an employer if you will pay salaries.
8. Keep continuous bookkeeping and prepare the annual accounts each financial year.
9. Submit the annual report to Bolagsverket every year.
Optional:
1. Obtain business and personal insurance.
2. Register trademarks or protect other intellectual property.
3. Choose an auditor if you want one or when the company later reaches the required thresholds.
4. Register a cash register if you accept cash or card payments.
5. Meet requirements for import/export and obtain an EORI number.
6. Follow rules for buying/selling goods or services within or outside the EU.
7. Keep a staff ledger if required for your industry.
8. Follow reverse-charge VAT rules if you operate in construction.
9. Apply for permits if your specific business activity requires them.
This is not what I'd call a straightforward process, personally. Also speaking from personal experience. Sorry for the formatting.
I guess it depends what we mean with straightforward. If we mean something along the lines of "no ambiguity" then yes. If we mean something along the lines of "simple, easy to do" then no. Almost anything can be accomplished with a sufficiently long checklist. I just feel like the entire process could be streamlined and simplified.
It scares me that people think like this. Not only with respect to AI but in general, when it comes to other life forms, people seem to prefer to err on the side of convenience. The fact that cows could be experiencing something very similar to ourselves should send shivers down our spine. The same argument goes for future AGI.
I find it strange that people believe cows and sentient animals don’t believe something extremely similar to what we do.
Evolution means we all have common ancestors and are different branches of the same development tree.
So if we have sentience and they have sentience, which science keeps recognizing, belatedly, that non human animals do, shouldn’t the default presumption be our experiences are similar? Or at the very least their experience is similar to a human at an earlier stage of development, like a 2 year old?
Which is also an interesting case study given that out of convenience, humans also believed that toddlers also weren’t sentient and felt no pain, and so until not that long ago, our society would conduct all sorts of surgical procedures on babies without any sort of pain relief (circumcision being the most obvious).
It’s probably time we accept our fellow animals’s sentience and act on the obvious ethical implications of that instead of conveniently ignoring it like we did with little kids until recently.
This crowd would sooner believe silicon hardware (an arbitrary human invention from the 50s-60s) will have the physical properties required for consciousness than accept that they participate in torturing literally a hundred billion consciousness animals every year.
I’m actually a vegan because I believe cows have consciousness. I believe consciousness is the only trait worth considering when applying morality questions. Arbitrary hardware is conscious.
years of consistent disappointment with the user experience, along with years of misleading internet propaganda dramatically overselling the quality and power of the underlying technology.
It surprises me that people still believe this! I've seen AI deliver incredible value over the past year. I believe the application level is utilizing <.5% (probably less) of the total value that can be derived from current foundation models.
There's an old and famous quote around computers not having morals, and thus computers requiring people on top of them that can steward systems and be hold accountable.
Besides morals, you'll always need people in the interface between the computers and the world. Maybe they won't write too much code, but they'll need to specify and verify behaviours anyway.
Non deterministic software will never produce 100% of the time perfect results. So we will need humans with knowledge to verify up to when an other technology will be able to build enough trust to avoid human reviews.
With 2000 line very precise prompts, Claude code finishes saying the code is ready for production and there is still anomalies and bugs that it should have catched but didn’t. Good luck trusting 100% of your business on such technologies.
Totally agree. It doesn't seem limited to EU results btw. I added a bookmark on the toolbar and will be searching there first. Enough already will surveillance capitalism!
Yes, but we had hopes that it would lead to more. And had lead to more, something only known to be false in hindsight, who knows where that would have ended us up? What if it upended the standard model instead of reinforcing it?
> Absolutely not.
What are we supposed to do then? As humans, I mean. No one knows why we're here, what the universe really is like. We have some pretty good models that we know are wrong and we don't know what wonders the theoretical implications of any successor models might bring. That said, do we really need to motivate fundamental research into the nature of reality with a promise of technology?
I'm not arguing for mindlessly building bigger accelerators, and I don't think anyone is - there has to exist a solid line of reasoning to warrant the effort. And we might find that there are smarter ways of getting there for less effort - great! But if there isn't, discrediting the venue of particle accelerators due to their high upfront cost as well as historical results would be a mistake. We can afford it, and we don't know the future.
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